3 ms·

Why are costs so much higher in NY though?

yummyfajitas 11y ago
Based on comparisons to London, Paris, Hong Kong, Tokyo and Singapore, we can rule out (market) wages and density. @MarketUrbanism suggests exceedingly unproductive construction techniques requiring 4x the amount of workers in the rest of the world (caused by union capture of local politics) play a role. https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639265131885686784 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639265131885686784 http://www.jacobssf.com/images/uploads/09_Thapa_Caldecott_RETC.pdf http://www.jacobssf.com/images/uploads/09_Thapa_Caldecott_RE... Apparently the MTA also spends money to avoid having to cooperate with NJ: https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/638356461538684928 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/638356461538684928
shalmanese 11y ago
Costs are higher throughout the entire US for infrastructure projects. The US routinely pays an order of magnitude more per mile for similarly scoped projects compared to countries like Spain. The root cause appears to be in the unique way projects are bid on in the US, where details need to be laid out in excruciating detail ahead of time and then any unplanned changes are cause for cost padding.
- brenschluss 11y ago
  Sincerely curious: What's an alternative to the bidding process you mention?
  - rmxt 11y ago
    Historically, most projects in the United States performed by public agencies have been of the "Design-Bid-Build" variety, but there are a number of other styles. Most of which involve the owner/agency contracting to fewer entities who do more of the various types of work that need to be done (design, constructing, managing, operating, financing etc.). Traditionally, in Design-Bid-Build the owner contracts with one company to design, they perform the bidding process, and a separate entity does the building, with financing also coming from their own operating/capital budget. The alternatives shown here [1] spice up that process. DBB isn't completely evil, the wiki page does a good breakdown of it's pros and cons. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_delivery_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_delivery_method [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design%E2%80%93bid%E2%80%93build#Potential_problems_of_design.E2.80.93bid.E2.80.93build https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design%E2%80%93bid%E2%80%93bui...
pcurve 11y ago
The proposed Hudson River tunnel has price tag of $20 billion. The 30 mile+ Channel Tunnel cost less. Go figure.

Based on comparisons to London, Paris, Hong Kong, Tokyo and Singapore, we can rule out (market) wages and density. @MarketUrbanism suggests exceedingly unproductive construction techniques requiring 4x the amount of workers in the rest of the world (caused by union capture of local politics) play a role. https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639265131885686784 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639265131885686784 http://www.jacobssf.com/images/uploads/09_Thapa_Caldecott_RETC.pdf http://www.jacobssf.com/images/uploads/09_Thapa_Caldecott_RE... Apparently the MTA also spends money to avoid having to cooperate with NJ: https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/638356461538684928 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/638356461538684928

shalmanese 11y ago

Costs are higher throughout the entire US for infrastructure projects. The US routinely pays an order of magnitude more per mile for similarly scoped projects compared to countries like Spain. The root cause appears to be in the unique way projects are bid on in the US, where details need to be laid out in excruciating detail ahead of time and then any unplanned changes are cause for cost padding.

brenschluss 11y ago
Sincerely curious: What's an alternative to the bidding process you mention?
- rmxt 11y ago
  Historically, most projects in the United States performed by public agencies have been of the "Design-Bid-Build" variety, but there are a number of other styles. Most of which involve the owner/agency contracting to fewer entities who do more of the various types of work that need to be done (design, constructing, managing, operating, financing etc.). Traditionally, in Design-Bid-Build the owner contracts with one company to design, they perform the bidding process, and a separate entity does the building, with financing also coming from their own operating/capital budget. The alternatives shown here [1] spice up that process. DBB isn't completely evil, the wiki page does a good breakdown of it's pros and cons. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_delivery_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_delivery_method [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design%E2%80%93bid%E2%80%93build#Potential_problems_of_design.E2.80.93bid.E2.80.93build https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design%E2%80%93bid%E2%80%93bui...

pcurve 11y ago

The proposed Hudson River tunnel has price tag of $20 billion. The 30 mile+ Channel Tunnel cost less. Go figure.