5 ms·

This article is a bit clueless. The state has more than adequately provided the MTA with money. The place where the state failed is providing sufficient oversig

This article is a bit clueless. The state has more than adequately provided the MTA with money. The place where the state failed is providing sufficient oversight to make sure the MTA isn't wasting it. Paris spent 1.3B euro on the 14 line, which has 9 stations. The MTA spent 2.4B on a single stop on the 7 line. MTA construction costs drastically exceed worldwide norms - the MTA spends $1B/kilometer. http://www.systra.com/IMG/pdf/metro_meteor_en.pdf http://www.systra.com/IMG/pdf/metro_meteor_en.pdf https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comparative-subway-construction-costs-revised/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comp... Apparently the only project outside NYC to cost more than $1B/KM is London's Crossrail. Even the Jubilee line extension is only $0.45B/km, and that's pretty pricey. https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/us-rail-construction-costs/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/us-r... tl;dr; Funding is adequate, costs are simply out of control.

morgante 11y ago
Why are costs so much higher in NY though?
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  Based on comparisons to London, Paris, Hong Kong, Tokyo and Singapore, we can rule out (market) wages and density. @MarketUrbanism suggests exceedingly unproductive construction techniques requiring 4x the amount of workers in the rest of the world (caused by union capture of local politics) play a role. https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639265131885686784 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639265131885686784 http://www.jacobssf.com/images/uploads/09_Thapa_Caldecott_RETC.pdf http://www.jacobssf.com/images/uploads/09_Thapa_Caldecott_RE... Apparently the MTA also spends money to avoid having to cooperate with NJ: https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/638356461538684928 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/638356461538684928
- shalmanese 11y ago
  Costs are higher throughout the entire US for infrastructure projects. The US routinely pays an order of magnitude more per mile for similarly scoped projects compared to countries like Spain. The root cause appears to be in the unique way projects are bid on in the US, where details need to be laid out in excruciating detail ahead of time and then any unplanned changes are cause for cost padding.
  - brenschluss 11y ago
    Sincerely curious: What's an alternative to the bidding process you mention?
    - rmxt 11y ago
      Historically, most projects in the United States performed by public agencies have been of the "Design-Bid-Build" variety, but there are a number of other styles. Most of which involve the owner/agency contracting to fewer entities who do more of the various types of work that need to be done (design, constructing, managing, operating, financing etc.). Traditionally, in Design-Bid-Build the owner contracts with one company to design, they perform the bidding process, and a separate entity does the building, with financing also coming from their own operating/capital budget. The alternatives shown here [1] spice up that process. DBB isn't completely evil, the wiki page does a good breakdown of it's pros and cons. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_delivery_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_delivery_method [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design%E2%80%93bid%E2%80%93build#Potential_problems_of_design.E2.80.93bid.E2.80.93build https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design%E2%80%93bid%E2%80%93bui...
- pcurve 11y ago
  The proposed Hudson River tunnel has price tag of $20 billion. The 30 mile+ Channel Tunnel cost less. Go figure.
pcurve 11y ago
The port authority bus station renovation proposal had sticker price of $9 billion. Compared that to $500 million Japan spent renovating their Tokyo Station a few years ago which involved: - Adding 3rd floor level, raising roof. - reconstructing intricate decorations and motifs before it was bombed in the war. - station hotel renovation - installation of earthquake proof underground seismic buffers and dampers. (hundreds of them) - 5 year long All that for $500 million. In the middle of Tokyo. Construction cost in the U.S. is a complete joke.
PhantomGremlin 11y ago
Funding is adequate, costs are simply out of control Yeah, that's the bottom line. Govt funded infrastructure projects are totally out of control, it's not just NYC. My favorite example is local, in Oregon. In 1982 a very fine bridge was opened across the Columbia River. It cost $170 million.[1] Fast forward to recently. Before the plug was finally pulled, estimated costs for a second bridge a few miles away were $2.8 billion.[2] And that was for a scaled down version. Other estimates were as high as $10 billion. Yes we've had some inflation in the last 30 years. But the cost increases far outpace inflation. And nobody in government cares. All they do is say "we need it", without doing any critical thinking. What they really mean is "we want it". It's like the teenagers in my house. They want everything, they don't care how much it costs. They haven't earned the money they want to spend, so to them any possible costs are meaningless. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_L._Jackson_Memorial_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_L._Jackson_Memorial_Brid... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_River_Crossing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_River_Crossing

morgante 11y ago

Why are costs so much higher in NY though?

yummyfajitas 11y ago
Based on comparisons to London, Paris, Hong Kong, Tokyo and Singapore, we can rule out (market) wages and density. @MarketUrbanism suggests exceedingly unproductive construction techniques requiring 4x the amount of workers in the rest of the world (caused by union capture of local politics) play a role. https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639445006084886529 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639265131885686784 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/639265131885686784 http://www.jacobssf.com/images/uploads/09_Thapa_Caldecott_RETC.pdf http://www.jacobssf.com/images/uploads/09_Thapa_Caldecott_RE... Apparently the MTA also spends money to avoid having to cooperate with NJ: https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/638356461538684928 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/638356461538684928
shalmanese 11y ago
Costs are higher throughout the entire US for infrastructure projects. The US routinely pays an order of magnitude more per mile for similarly scoped projects compared to countries like Spain. The root cause appears to be in the unique way projects are bid on in the US, where details need to be laid out in excruciating detail ahead of time and then any unplanned changes are cause for cost padding.
- brenschluss 11y ago
  Sincerely curious: What's an alternative to the bidding process you mention?
  - rmxt 11y ago
    Historically, most projects in the United States performed by public agencies have been of the "Design-Bid-Build" variety, but there are a number of other styles. Most of which involve the owner/agency contracting to fewer entities who do more of the various types of work that need to be done (design, constructing, managing, operating, financing etc.). Traditionally, in Design-Bid-Build the owner contracts with one company to design, they perform the bidding process, and a separate entity does the building, with financing also coming from their own operating/capital budget. The alternatives shown here [1] spice up that process. DBB isn't completely evil, the wiki page does a good breakdown of it's pros and cons. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_delivery_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_delivery_method [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design%E2%80%93bid%E2%80%93build#Potential_problems_of_design.E2.80.93bid.E2.80.93build https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design%E2%80%93bid%E2%80%93bui...
pcurve 11y ago
The proposed Hudson River tunnel has price tag of $20 billion. The 30 mile+ Channel Tunnel cost less. Go figure.

pcurve 11y ago

The port authority bus station renovation proposal had sticker price of $9 billion. Compared that to $500 million Japan spent renovating their Tokyo Station a few years ago which involved: - Adding 3rd floor level, raising roof. - reconstructing intricate decorations and motifs before it was bombed in the war. - station hotel renovation - installation of earthquake proof underground seismic buffers and dampers. (hundreds of them) - 5 year long All that for $500 million. In the middle of Tokyo. Construction cost in the U.S. is a complete joke.

PhantomGremlin 11y ago

Funding is adequate, costs are simply out of control Yeah, that's the bottom line. Govt funded infrastructure projects are totally out of control, it's not just NYC. My favorite example is local, in Oregon. In 1982 a very fine bridge was opened across the Columbia River. It cost $170 million.[1] Fast forward to recently. Before the plug was finally pulled, estimated costs for a second bridge a few miles away were $2.8 billion.[2] And that was for a scaled down version. Other estimates were as high as $10 billion. Yes we've had some inflation in the last 30 years. But the cost increases far outpace inflation. And nobody in government cares. All they do is say "we need it", without doing any critical thinking. What they really mean is "we want it". It's like the teenagers in my house. They want everything, they don't care how much it costs. They haven't earned the money they want to spend, so to them any possible costs are meaningless. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_L._Jackson_Memorial_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_L._Jackson_Memorial_Brid... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_River_Crossing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_River_Crossing