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You appear to regard "traditional education" as a monolith. My comment was to point out that there have been many diverse systems. While your proposal may be di

by dalke 11y ago

You appear to regard "traditional education" as a monolith. My comment was to point out that there have been many diverse systems. While your proposal may be different from the most stereotypical modern college system, it is not significantly different from existing or historical alternative systems. You write 'This system is different from traditional education in that there are no standardized tests, no tenured teachers, and the student determines the pace of their education' First off, 'standardized tests' doesn't apply to higher education. At least, all of the tests I took in college, at a US state school, were created by the teacher. While there has been an increasing emphasis in standardized tests in the primary and secondary level, the only college level and higher tests I know of are for admittance, like the SAT, ACT, LSAT, an GRE. From what I understand, the first two are decreasingly important, and in any case many schools, especially public junior colleges and community colleges, have open enrollment policies. Second off, the University of Phoenix is an example of a 4 year college with no tenured teachers. Searching now, the Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering and Lindenwood University are two other colleges without tenure positions. (Olin College seems to share other aspects with your proposal.) As for 'student determines the pace of their education'; what do you mean by that? Many school allows part-time students. But taking 1 class per year, which would mean taking 40 years to graduate, is usually not possible. It certainly isn't manageable by your scheme, since you expect higher continuity between the student and industry experts. On the other hand, traditional correspondence schools, and schools like the Open University, are structured around the needs of part-time students. Quoting from the Open University's home page: "You don’t need any formal qualifications to study with us, just commitment and a desire to find out what you are capable of." and elsewhere "If (like most OU students) you study part time at a rate of 60 credits a year, you'll take six years to complete an honours degree". (Eyeballing now, they have a time limit of 12 years in their program.) Actually, the Open University seems rather similar to what you propose. At http://www.open.ac.uk/about/main/strategy/partnerships http://www.open.ac.uk/about/main/strategy/partnerships - "We also offer a choice of 22 foundation degrees, designed in collaboration with employers to provide the intermediate technical and professional skills they demand." While not 'traditional', my question wasn't "how is your proposal different from (to pick an example of a traditional school) the University of Chicago" but "how is your proposal significantly different than existing examples of higher education?" "My current model is that industry experts would be treated as independent contractors." Ah, so treat them like adjunct professors? Yeah, few in industry will want to deal with that hassle. Adjuncts put up with it because they hope for a full-time academic job. What does the independent industry expert get out of it?

judahmeek 11y ago
- "You appear to regard "traditional education" as a monolith. My comment was to point out that there have been many diverse systems." - To clarify, when I say "traditional education", I'm referring to the liberal arts college model. I do this because currently 66% of high school graduates enroll in college within a year and 88% of high school graduates enroll in college by the age of 26. - "While your proposal may be different from the most stereotypical modern college system, it is not significantly different from existing or historical alternative systems." - "existing or historical alternative systems" is a really big scope. If the scope is limited to just "existing alternative systems", then I respectfully disagree. Udacity probably has the most similar model (if there is something more similar, then I have yet to find it) and the resemblances are striking. However, my model differs in the amount of intrinsic motivation, problem solving, & project management skills required of the student. The model is designed to test and record the students' character qualities and display those qualities to potential employers. It's for what Marie Bjerede describes as "Hobbyists" - https://www.edsurge.com/news/2015-09-02-hobbyists-scholars-and-their-learning-environments https://www.edsurge.com/news/2015-09-02-hobbyists-scholars-a... - and I hope that, should the proof of concept succeed, the model will encourage all students to become hobbyists, so there's a strong social impact angle here, rather than just trying to serve the existing market. I want to promote personal growth. - "First off, 'standardized tests' doesn't apply to higher education. At least, all of the tests I took in college, at a US state school, were created by the teacher." - You're using a really limited definition of "standardized testing". While all my exams were also created by the instructor, the questions were selected from a "common bank of questions" and "scored in a “standard” or consistent manner, which makes it possible to compare the relative performance of individual students or groups of students", which fits the definition provided here: http://edglossary.org/standardized-test/ http://edglossary.org/standardized-test/ I'm aware that the primary association of the term "standardized test" is with large scale tests, such as the SAT, ACT, TAKS, etc, but many college exams still fit under the definition. - "Second off, the University of Phoenix is an example of a 4 year college with no tenured teachers. Searching now, the Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering and Lindenwood University are two other colleges without tenure positions." - Tenure is not the issue. The issue is having instructors who have near total control over teaching methods, assignments, and grading rubrics for their courses, yet whose skill at actually facilitating student learning can't be quantified. This issue is why the No Child Left Behind act and the Common Core are so controversial. My model solves this issue by giving the student control of determining the instruction methods & assignments that suit them best and disposing of grading scales completely. - "As for 'student determines the pace of their education'; what do you mean by that?" - I mean that there will be no classes, no semester, no academic year, no common schedule of any kind. The student designs & implements projects & meets with advisor as the student chooses to. Accordingly, the fee system will reflect this by charging individual fees for individual meetings or a hourly rate instead of a single fee (say tuition) that covers services for 4-5 months at a time. - "What does the independent industry expert get out of it?" - I suspect that most of the industry experts won't be freelancers, but rather will be employed by one of the corporations with which we have a strategic partnership. I don't know all the reasons that freelancers are freelancers, but I suspect that two main categories are "Autonomy & Flexible Schedule" and "Extremely High Demand". While freelancers in the High Demand category will probably pass us up due to their ability to make much higher income, I believe our model has a lot to offer freelancers in the "Autonomy & Flexible Schedule" category. In addition, there is the social impact and giving back to the community aspect. Will it be enough? I can only hope so. As for your comparison to adjunct professors, did you know a quarter of part time college faculty receive public assistance? We won't even be able to treat our independent contractors anywhere near as bad. Colleges depend on the fact that their entire industry is institutionalized to be able to pull that kind of garbage. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/04/13/adjunct_pay_a_quarter_of_part_time_college_faculty_receive_public_assistance.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/04/13/adjunct_pay_a... Finally, I would like to point out that any advising will be more along the lines of "Here are some links where you can find information on industry best practices" and "You might want to consider taking this approach instead" as opposed to Death by Powerpoint, taking attendance, and grading essays for 8 hours.

by dalke 11y ago

judahmeek 11y ago

- "You appear to regard "traditional education" as a monolith. My comment was to point out that there have been many diverse systems." - To clarify, when I say "traditional education", I'm referring to the liberal arts college model. I do this because currently 66% of high school graduates enroll in college within a year and 88% of high school graduates enroll in college by the age of 26. - "While your proposal may be different from the most stereotypical modern college system, it is not significantly different from existing or historical alternative systems." - "existing or historical alternative systems" is a really big scope. If the scope is limited to just "existing alternative systems", then I respectfully disagree. Udacity probably has the most similar model (if there is something more similar, then I have yet to find it) and the resemblances are striking. However, my model differs in the amount of intrinsic motivation, problem solving, & project management skills required of the student. The model is designed to test and record the students' character qualities and display those qualities to potential employers. It's for what Marie Bjerede describes as "Hobbyists" - https://www.edsurge.com/news/2015-09-02-hobbyists-scholars-and-their-learning-environments https://www.edsurge.com/news/2015-09-02-hobbyists-scholars-a... - and I hope that, should the proof of concept succeed, the model will encourage all students to become hobbyists, so there's a strong social impact angle here, rather than just trying to serve the existing market. I want to promote personal growth. - "First off, 'standardized tests' doesn't apply to higher education. At least, all of the tests I took in college, at a US state school, were created by the teacher." - You're using a really limited definition of "standardized testing". While all my exams were also created by the instructor, the questions were selected from a "common bank of questions" and "scored in a “standard” or consistent manner, which makes it possible to compare the relative performance of individual students or groups of students", which fits the definition provided here: http://edglossary.org/standardized-test/ http://edglossary.org/standardized-test/ I'm aware that the primary association of the term "standardized test" is with large scale tests, such as the SAT, ACT, TAKS, etc, but many college exams still fit under the definition. - "Second off, the University of Phoenix is an example of a 4 year college with no tenured teachers. Searching now, the Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering and Lindenwood University are two other colleges without tenure positions." - Tenure is not the issue. The issue is having instructors who have near total control over teaching methods, assignments, and grading rubrics for their courses, yet whose skill at actually facilitating student learning can't be quantified. This issue is why the No Child Left Behind act and the Common Core are so controversial. My model solves this issue by giving the student control of determining the instruction methods & assignments that suit them best and disposing of grading scales completely. - "As for 'student determines the pace of their education'; what do you mean by that?" - I mean that there will be no classes, no semester, no academic year, no common schedule of any kind. The student designs & implements projects & meets with advisor as the student chooses to. Accordingly, the fee system will reflect this by charging individual fees for individual meetings or a hourly rate instead of a single fee (say tuition) that covers services for 4-5 months at a time. - "What does the independent industry expert get out of it?" - I suspect that most of the industry experts won't be freelancers, but rather will be employed by one of the corporations with which we have a strategic partnership. I don't know all the reasons that freelancers are freelancers, but I suspect that two main categories are "Autonomy & Flexible Schedule" and "Extremely High Demand". While freelancers in the High Demand category will probably pass us up due to their ability to make much higher income, I believe our model has a lot to offer freelancers in the "Autonomy & Flexible Schedule" category. In addition, there is the social impact and giving back to the community aspect. Will it be enough? I can only hope so. As for your comparison to adjunct professors, did you know a quarter of part time college faculty receive public assistance? We won't even be able to treat our independent contractors anywhere near as bad. Colleges depend on the fact that their entire industry is institutionalized to be able to pull that kind of garbage. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/04/13/adjunct_pay_a_quarter_of_part_time_college_faculty_receive_public_assistance.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/04/13/adjunct_pay_a... Finally, I would like to point out that any advising will be more along the lines of "Here are some links where you can find information on industry best practices" and "You might want to consider taking this approach instead" as opposed to Death by Powerpoint, taking attendance, and grading essays for 8 hours.