7 ms·

Obviously moral judgments in medicine can be incredibly difficult, but who's to say that this person's life might not have been drastically altered for the bett

Obviously moral judgments in medicine can be incredibly difficult, but who's to say that this person's life might not have been drastically altered for the better ("saved") if a MRI scan 20-25 years earlier had revealed the cyst, so that could have been removed? Then the brain might have developed normally. The point is that the condition is time-dependent because the brain develops most in a child's early years, and scanning early could make a difference.

DanBC 11y ago
You use exactly the same arguments as people selling mercury chelation or hyperbaric oxygen chambers or etc. There's a huge list of horseshit peddled to people with autism (or more usually their parents). http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/autism-diagnosis/beware-non-evidence-based-treatments http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/autism...
- thinkcomp 11y ago
  Not exactly the same, because this has absolutely nothing to do with mercury, and has support in journal articles that have not been retracted on account of scandal. Search on PubMed for yourself, or start here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3677555/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3677555/ The scams you mention are even discussed in the article. Did you read it? Or are you saying that MRIs are like chelation therapy?
  - QSIITurbo 11y ago
    The article does not ctrl-f to cysts, but I would be more interested to hear how you'd go about removing or treating a cyst in a developing brain 20-25 years ago. Any suggestions?
    - thinkcomp 11y ago
      http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01418470#page-1 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01418470#page-1
      - QSIITurbo 11y ago
        No wait, now I can :) As you can see, the linked article concerns treating intracranial cerebrospinal fluid cysts when treating hydrocephalus (and is effective as far as I know). Now: what does this treatment have to do with the cyst presented in the original blog? The purpose of the shunt in your link is to allow venting of cerebrospinal fluid. Is the cb-fluid flow somehow blocked in the case of the autistic brother in the blog or is the cyst located in a place where shunting does not make any sense?
        thinkcomp 11y ago
        The cyst mentioned in the original article (and shown in the MRI image at the top) is a posterior fossa CSF cyst that most likely formed as the result of hydrocephalus. Basically, it's the same thing. This is an example of how confusing all of the terminology underlying autism is. In some patients, CSF cysts, hydrocephalus, Dandy-Walker Variant and "autism" may all be very much related or referring to the same thing. And to your earlier point, that SpringerLink article shows that they've been draining such cysts with shunts since at least as early as 1985, even if they didn't necessarily know what leaving them in place might result in later in life.
        QSIITurbo 11y ago
        What do you find confusing about these different medical conditions? Hydrocephalus is a condition that can arise from various defects in the brain, Dandy-walker is defined otherwise. Do you think that a CSF cyst is required for an individual to develop autism and if so, wouldn't the link be kind of obvious to medicine at this point?
        deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- tracker1 11y ago
  This isn't exactly horseshit though.. TFA is suggesting better diagnostics, categorization and research into variances in cysts and the cerebellum. As to the busy MRI schedule, it might get better if there were more of them and more usage... they are very costly, but so were computers back in the 1970's. If a significant number of normal and autistic children/adults were scanned more of a matter of course (much like mammograms), then we might actually have better knowledge and improve real world treatment. ---- Edit for clarity I understand that the sheer usage of mammograms has actually been shown to be a poor predictor in practice, the brain is a bit more complicated, and scanning/evaluating would take more practice... but the impact to society could be very large, indeed.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    We already scan brains of people with ASD as a research practice. Submitted article doesn't talk about this research, but talks about use of MRI for their own pet theory.
tedunangst 11y ago
Scan everyone and remove all the asymptomatic brain cysts just in case they cause problems in 20 years? Maybe we should also go back to removing everybody's tonsils just in case they develop tonsillitis later.
- SturgeonsLaw 11y ago
  Number of times I've had tonsillitis since having my tonsils removed? Zero. Just sayin'.
  - beagle3 11y ago
    Don't want to alarm you, but, be aware that you are at a higher risk for a heart attack[0][1] (and apparently various other ailments, although I can't find the other studies right now). The tonsils are apparently a "fore scout" of the immune system, and removing them hurts its effectiveness. (Similarly, the appendix is a cache of good bacteria which the body needs - removing it robs the body of the ability to repopulate those bacteria populations). Turns out those organs are not useless after all. [0] http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601075128.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601075128.ht... [1] http://ki.se/en/news/increased-risk-of-heart-attack-after-early-removal-of-appendix-or-tonsils http://ki.se/en/news/increased-risk-of-heart-attack-after-ea...

DanBC 11y ago

You use exactly the same arguments as people selling mercury chelation or hyperbaric oxygen chambers or etc. There's a huge list of horseshit peddled to people with autism (or more usually their parents). http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/autism-diagnosis/beware-non-evidence-based-treatments http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/autism...

thinkcomp 11y ago
Not exactly the same, because this has absolutely nothing to do with mercury, and has support in journal articles that have not been retracted on account of scandal. Search on PubMed for yourself, or start here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3677555/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3677555/ The scams you mention are even discussed in the article. Did you read it? Or are you saying that MRIs are like chelation therapy?
- QSIITurbo 11y ago
  The article does not ctrl-f to cysts, but I would be more interested to hear how you'd go about removing or treating a cyst in a developing brain 20-25 years ago. Any suggestions?
  - thinkcomp 11y ago
    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01418470#page-1 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01418470#page-1
    - QSIITurbo 11y ago
      No wait, now I can :) As you can see, the linked article concerns treating intracranial cerebrospinal fluid cysts when treating hydrocephalus (and is effective as far as I know). Now: what does this treatment have to do with the cyst presented in the original blog? The purpose of the shunt in your link is to allow venting of cerebrospinal fluid. Is the cb-fluid flow somehow blocked in the case of the autistic brother in the blog or is the cyst located in a place where shunting does not make any sense?
      - thinkcomp 11y ago
        The cyst mentioned in the original article (and shown in the MRI image at the top) is a posterior fossa CSF cyst that most likely formed as the result of hydrocephalus. Basically, it's the same thing. This is an example of how confusing all of the terminology underlying autism is. In some patients, CSF cysts, hydrocephalus, Dandy-Walker Variant and "autism" may all be very much related or referring to the same thing. And to your earlier point, that SpringerLink article shows that they've been draining such cysts with shunts since at least as early as 1985, even if they didn't necessarily know what leaving them in place might result in later in life.
        QSIITurbo 11y ago
        What do you find confusing about these different medical conditions? Hydrocephalus is a condition that can arise from various defects in the brain, Dandy-walker is defined otherwise. Do you think that a CSF cyst is required for an individual to develop autism and if so, wouldn't the link be kind of obvious to medicine at this point?
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
tracker1 11y ago
This isn't exactly horseshit though.. TFA is suggesting better diagnostics, categorization and research into variances in cysts and the cerebellum. As to the busy MRI schedule, it might get better if there were more of them and more usage... they are very costly, but so were computers back in the 1970's. If a significant number of normal and autistic children/adults were scanned more of a matter of course (much like mammograms), then we might actually have better knowledge and improve real world treatment. ---- Edit for clarity I understand that the sheer usage of mammograms has actually been shown to be a poor predictor in practice, the brain is a bit more complicated, and scanning/evaluating would take more practice... but the impact to society could be very large, indeed.
- DanBC 11y ago
  We already scan brains of people with ASD as a research practice. Submitted article doesn't talk about this research, but talks about use of MRI for their own pet theory.

tedunangst 11y ago

Scan everyone and remove all the asymptomatic brain cysts just in case they cause problems in 20 years? Maybe we should also go back to removing everybody's tonsils just in case they develop tonsillitis later.

SturgeonsLaw 11y ago
Number of times I've had tonsillitis since having my tonsils removed? Zero. Just sayin'.
- beagle3 11y ago
  Don't want to alarm you, but, be aware that you are at a higher risk for a heart attack[0][1] (and apparently various other ailments, although I can't find the other studies right now). The tonsils are apparently a "fore scout" of the immune system, and removing them hurts its effectiveness. (Similarly, the appendix is a cache of good bacteria which the body needs - removing it robs the body of the ability to repopulate those bacteria populations). Turns out those organs are not useless after all. [0] http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601075128.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601075128.ht... [1] http://ki.se/en/news/increased-risk-of-heart-attack-after-early-removal-of-appendix-or-tonsils http://ki.se/en/news/increased-risk-of-heart-attack-after-ea...