6 ms·

The Tablet and the Calculator

40 points by Amorymeltzer 11y ago

koralatov 11y ago
Perhaps even stranger: the HP-12c, a calculator that's effectively unchanged since the early 1980s, continues to sell well at a price higher than the new Amazon tablets. It's not new, doesn't trade on exclusivity, and is easily available second-hand on eBay --- but still sells well brand-new. My old employer bought my first for me, at a cost of about £70 in 2011. It was a great purchase, and repaid itself many times over. The internals have changed, now running some kind of ARM emulator inside, but I have one from the '80s and another from 2012, and they operate identically. There are some superficial differences, but you could give a modern one to a user in 1985 and they'd be right at home. The Wall Street Journal wrote a nice retrospective of the HP12c for its 30th anniversary in 2011: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703841904576257440326458056 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527487038419045762574...
- Zombieball 11y ago
  HP should revive the 16c! Given they still produce the 12c I imagine it would be quite simple to do. Maybe I am crazy but I've always felt there is still a strong demand for the 16c (but who knows given they did make the decision to halt production).
- bsder 11y ago
  In fact, calculator design seems to have gone backward. The HP48 was an amazing calculator for engineers. It often sells on Ebay for more than HP's current highest-end calculators do brand new. The problem is that HP's calculator division originally knew that calculators were about accuracy--both numerically, the algorithms were specified and stable, and physically, the keys simply never made an error and had a positive physical feel when they engaged. I could enter long semiconductor device physics calculations into my HP48SX and not even look at the display. I would know that everything was entered correctly simply by feel. I can't even hope to do that on anything "modern".
  - a_e_k 11y ago
    Yes, I've noticed their newer calculators now use the same style rubber or plastic keys as everyone else uses without that nice snap that the old had. I loved being able to key things in without looking. Also, the battery life was downright astonishing. I recall going most of a year on a set of three AAAs. These days I tend to use the Droid48 emulator (one of my favorite apps) on my Android. It lacks the tactile feel, obviously, but makes up for it by being always in my pocket -- similar to phone cameras vs. good dedicated cameras.
  - RogerL 11y ago
    Yes, sometimes the keys on my new 12 sometimes don't register at all. The enter key is the biggest culprit, of all things. Never again. Meanwhile my 41cv from 1982 is still going strong.
  - falcrist 11y ago
    In the 80s and early 90s there were scientific calculators that were programmable and had substantially more functionality built in than the current batch of scientific calculators. If you want illustrations of this, compare the HP 42s to the TI 36X Pro. Granted, the HP was more expensive than the TI, but the 36 series is the top of the line for TI at this point. The TI can do integration, complex arithmetic, vectors, and matrices. However, most of it's functions don't work in the complex domain, and the matrices are limited to 3×3. It has a solver, but that's limited. It can't store equations or programs. The HP can also do integration, complex arithmetic, vectors, and matrices. Almost all of its functions work in the complex domain (complex matrices are particularly useful). It has a versatile solver, works with matrices of over 10 elements, and can even store user programs (with GUI elements!). My theory on what happened is that normal desktop computers became powerful enough to run mathematical software packages, and graphing calculators became popular. Those two things dis-incentivized calculator manufacturers from creating powerful scientific calculators that could ACTUALLY fit in a pocket. The calculator now exists just for highschool students, which is a shame, because it would be really nice to have a powerful scientific with nice buttons. Maybe someone will build a calculator that also serves as an interface with a mathematics package… maybe even with "cloud" computing capabilities (where it runs the software package on your computer to do non-trivial things.
- harperlee 11y ago
  If you want to pass the Chartered Financial Analyst exams, you need a calculator. Only two models are allowed; this is one of them. That might be driving the price up!
rrss1122 11y ago
The price of the calculator is understandable, given the audience it is targeting. What is mind-boggling for me is that Texas Instruments can still get away with selling a TI-84 for $100 new, no doubt with The College Board's help. They are artificially keeping prices high for students by authorizing only a short list of calculators for exams. They don't even allow non-graphing scientific calculators to be used on the AP Calculus BC exam, you must use an expensive graphing calculator. https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse/ap-calculus-bc/calculator-policy https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse/ap-calculus-bc/c...
- Zombieball 11y ago
  That's a pretty decent list of calculators to choose from though. They allow the HP 50g which is quite a formidable calculator. Even HP Prime is on the list (never used it myself).
  - falcrist 11y ago
    The Prime is excellent (and very, very powerful), but it's an algebraic machine at heart, unlike the 50g. RPN isn't even an option in CAS mode. The thing is really damn fast, too.
- apricot 11y ago
  Calculators with a "typewriter-like (qwerty)" keyboard are forbidden, but they allow the TI Nspire CX, which has an alphabetic keyboard (albeit in the order abcde). What kind of stupid rule is that? (Especially considering they don't clear memory, and one can install a full Debian distribution on the Nspire CX...)
- hajile 11y ago
  I find that list interesting because much harder exams like the FE and PE exams (engineering exams for those who aren't familiar) don't allow anything beyond a basic, non-graphing calculator (ti-30/36, casio fx-115, and HP-33/35 at present according to their website). http://ncees.org/exams/calculator-policy/ http://ncees.org/exams/calculator-policy/
bane 11y ago
What really kind of blows my mind is that TI hasn't yet produced a $59.99 pro-level TI-Calc app for tablets and smart phones. There's enough people who grew up through school on TI calculators and would love to have a pro-level app to do their real work on. Toss in a $39.99 physical USB calculator keyboard (as an alternative to the on-screen) and TI could also reap the benefits of the accessory market. There has to be (or where) literally millions of buyers for this kind of thing. The k-12 training pipeline is the perfect way to lock people into the "TI-way" of calculating. (and yes I know you can install Octave and Matlab on Android devices these days, but people turn to those because there isn't a TI licensed pro-level app. And yes, I have several TI-calc emulators on my phone I use frequently).
- jacobolus 11y ago
  TI calculators are basically a racket. They are entirely unnecessary (I’d argue distracting and counterproductive) for student learning in the classroom, but via partnerships with the standardized test and textbook publishers, they’ve convinced American parents, students, and school administrators that they’re essential tools, and can thereby charge $100 for laughably antiquated hardware. It’s even sillier when you consider most students have a dramatically more capable smartphone in their pockets already. We might as well be teaching students to use Palm Pilots or 15-year-old point-and-shoot digital cameras. Calling them “pro level” is a joke.. real pros use (e.g.) Matlab, R, Mathematica, or Python.
  - wslh 11y ago
    I remember Steve Wozniak comments about being influenced by a HP calculator, and I ask if we can reinvent the calculator. Probably there is no business here but a short term challenge in UX.
  - lfowles 11y ago
    I think GP might have been getting at TI89 level calculators, which have CAS. That's a significant feature in my book.
    - 11y ago
fizixer 11y ago
The argument in this article belongs squarely in the WTF category. I wasted 5 minutes trying to find out why a shitty Casio calculator costing $220 is worth its price compared to a $50 android tablet.
- bitwize 11y ago
  For the same reason William Gibson wrote Neuromancer not on a computer, but on a Hermes typewriter. More low tech = more authentic.
- jarfil 11y ago
  Veblen goods, that's why.

40 points by Amorymeltzer 11y ago

Perhaps even stranger: the HP-12c, a calculator that's effectively unchanged since the early 1980s, continues to sell well at a price higher than the new Amazon tablets. It's not new, doesn't trade on exclusivity, and is easily available second-hand on eBay --- but still sells well brand-new. My old employer bought my first for me, at a cost of about £70 in 2011. It was a great purchase, and repaid itself many times over. The internals have changed, now running some kind of ARM emulator inside, but I have one from the '80s and another from 2012, and they operate identically. There are some superficial differences, but you could give a modern one to a user in 1985 and they'd be right at home. The Wall Street Journal wrote a nice retrospective of the HP12c for its 30th anniversary in 2011: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703841904576257440326458056 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527487038419045762574...

Zombieball 11y ago
HP should revive the 16c! Given they still produce the 12c I imagine it would be quite simple to do. Maybe I am crazy but I've always felt there is still a strong demand for the 16c (but who knows given they did make the decision to halt production).
bsder 11y ago
In fact, calculator design seems to have gone backward. The HP48 was an amazing calculator for engineers. It often sells on Ebay for more than HP's current highest-end calculators do brand new. The problem is that HP's calculator division originally knew that calculators were about accuracy--both numerically, the algorithms were specified and stable, and physically, the keys simply never made an error and had a positive physical feel when they engaged. I could enter long semiconductor device physics calculations into my HP48SX and not even look at the display. I would know that everything was entered correctly simply by feel. I can't even hope to do that on anything "modern".
- a_e_k 11y ago
  Yes, I've noticed their newer calculators now use the same style rubber or plastic keys as everyone else uses without that nice snap that the old had. I loved being able to key things in without looking. Also, the battery life was downright astonishing. I recall going most of a year on a set of three AAAs. These days I tend to use the Droid48 emulator (one of my favorite apps) on my Android. It lacks the tactile feel, obviously, but makes up for it by being always in my pocket -- similar to phone cameras vs. good dedicated cameras.
- RogerL 11y ago
  Yes, sometimes the keys on my new 12 sometimes don't register at all. The enter key is the biggest culprit, of all things. Never again. Meanwhile my 41cv from 1982 is still going strong.
- falcrist 11y ago
  In the 80s and early 90s there were scientific calculators that were programmable and had substantially more functionality built in than the current batch of scientific calculators. If you want illustrations of this, compare the HP 42s to the TI 36X Pro. Granted, the HP was more expensive than the TI, but the 36 series is the top of the line for TI at this point. The TI can do integration, complex arithmetic, vectors, and matrices. However, most of it's functions don't work in the complex domain, and the matrices are limited to 3×3. It has a solver, but that's limited. It can't store equations or programs. The HP can also do integration, complex arithmetic, vectors, and matrices. Almost all of its functions work in the complex domain (complex matrices are particularly useful). It has a versatile solver, works with matrices of over 10 elements, and can even store user programs (with GUI elements!). My theory on what happened is that normal desktop computers became powerful enough to run mathematical software packages, and graphing calculators became popular. Those two things dis-incentivized calculator manufacturers from creating powerful scientific calculators that could ACTUALLY fit in a pocket. The calculator now exists just for highschool students, which is a shame, because it would be really nice to have a powerful scientific with nice buttons. Maybe someone will build a calculator that also serves as an interface with a mathematics package… maybe even with "cloud" computing capabilities (where it runs the software package on your computer to do non-trivial things.
harperlee 11y ago
If you want to pass the Chartered Financial Analyst exams, you need a calculator. Only two models are allowed; this is one of them. That might be driving the price up!

rrss1122 11y ago

The price of the calculator is understandable, given the audience it is targeting. What is mind-boggling for me is that Texas Instruments can still get away with selling a TI-84 for $100 new, no doubt with The College Board's help. They are artificially keeping prices high for students by authorizing only a short list of calculators for exams. They don't even allow non-graphing scientific calculators to be used on the AP Calculus BC exam, you must use an expensive graphing calculator. https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse/ap-calculus-bc/calculator-policy https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse/ap-calculus-bc/c...

Zombieball 11y ago
That's a pretty decent list of calculators to choose from though. They allow the HP 50g which is quite a formidable calculator. Even HP Prime is on the list (never used it myself).
- falcrist 11y ago
  The Prime is excellent (and very, very powerful), but it's an algebraic machine at heart, unlike the 50g. RPN isn't even an option in CAS mode. The thing is really damn fast, too.
apricot 11y ago
Calculators with a "typewriter-like (qwerty)" keyboard are forbidden, but they allow the TI Nspire CX, which has an alphabetic keyboard (albeit in the order abcde). What kind of stupid rule is that? (Especially considering they don't clear memory, and one can install a full Debian distribution on the Nspire CX...)
hajile 11y ago
I find that list interesting because much harder exams like the FE and PE exams (engineering exams for those who aren't familiar) don't allow anything beyond a basic, non-graphing calculator (ti-30/36, casio fx-115, and HP-33/35 at present according to their website). http://ncees.org/exams/calculator-policy/ http://ncees.org/exams/calculator-policy/

bane 11y ago

What really kind of blows my mind is that TI hasn't yet produced a $59.99 pro-level TI-Calc app for tablets and smart phones. There's enough people who grew up through school on TI calculators and would love to have a pro-level app to do their real work on. Toss in a $39.99 physical USB calculator keyboard (as an alternative to the on-screen) and TI could also reap the benefits of the accessory market. There has to be (or where) literally millions of buyers for this kind of thing. The k-12 training pipeline is the perfect way to lock people into the "TI-way" of calculating. (and yes I know you can install Octave and Matlab on Android devices these days, but people turn to those because there isn't a TI licensed pro-level app. And yes, I have several TI-calc emulators on my phone I use frequently).

jacobolus 11y ago
TI calculators are basically a racket. They are entirely unnecessary (I’d argue distracting and counterproductive) for student learning in the classroom, but via partnerships with the standardized test and textbook publishers, they’ve convinced American parents, students, and school administrators that they’re essential tools, and can thereby charge $100 for laughably antiquated hardware. It’s even sillier when you consider most students have a dramatically more capable smartphone in their pockets already. We might as well be teaching students to use Palm Pilots or 15-year-old point-and-shoot digital cameras. Calling them “pro level” is a joke.. real pros use (e.g.) Matlab, R, Mathematica, or Python.
- wslh 11y ago
  I remember Steve Wozniak comments about being influenced by a HP calculator, and I ask if we can reinvent the calculator. Probably there is no business here but a short term challenge in UX.
- lfowles 11y ago
  I think GP might have been getting at TI89 level calculators, which have CAS. That's a significant feature in my book.
  - 11y ago

fizixer 11y ago

The argument in this article belongs squarely in the WTF category. I wasted 5 minutes trying to find out why a shitty Casio calculator costing $220 is worth its price compared to a $50 android tablet.

bitwize 11y ago
For the same reason William Gibson wrote Neuromancer not on a computer, but on a Hermes typewriter. More low tech = more authentic.
jarfil 11y ago
Veblen goods, that's why.