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Experience/skillsets: "SCIENCE!", but because $$$ ended up doing systems and software, mostly backend with the occasional GUI, C, C++ (have sworn off of), Perl
by hga 11y ago
Experience/skillsets: "SCIENCE!", but because $$$ ended up doing systems and software, mostly backend with the occasional GUI, C, C++ (have sworn off of), Perl (ditto), the various Lisps, esp. functional programming, going to look at ML next. A bit of kernel, embedded, or akin experience, e.g. a MS-DOS TSR filesystem. UNIX(TM) since 1978. Also see https://www.linkedin.com/in/haroldancell https://www.linkedin.com/in/haroldancell
Multics, ITS and the Lisp Machine are my ne plus ultra systems, but UNIX(TM) was good and available. I like the ITS/Lisp Machine development style, and in theory the FONC/VPRI and seL4 ones, but believe a modern web browser is a non-negotiable for users, and impractical with any of them, hence my angst.
Retired by disability, but should still be up for a few more serious projects, hence my looking at this arena which addresses many of my pain points. Anyway:
"JavaScript is utter garbage." Well, it has a lot of Scheme in it, so I'm not quite so hostile ... but I haven't use it except for a few months in 1997 ^_^. With any luck WebAssembly (https://github.com/WebAssembly https://github.com/WebAssembly) will make things a little less painful, the flip side of the "oligopoly" is only having to convince 4 organizations (Apple, Google, Microsoft, Mozilla).
To restate, the problem for the foreseeable future is the 2nd part of Postel's law, "be liberal in what you accept from others"; an objective of mine is a "desktop" that doesn't suck and has survival value, which requires a web browser that accepts, shall we say, the "best effort" of others' web pages. Or why since the early days browsers would so their best to display something in HTML without closing tags.
I believe "survival value" is very important, it's a quality of ultimate computer viri like the UNIX family that Richard Gabriel was getting at in his Worse is Better essays (https://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html https://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html). A browser's ultra-complicated moving target requires creating, co-opting, or allying with a big community of developers. Hmmm, and only by doing the latter are you likely to develop fundamentally better approaches, which need buy-in from enough of the browser "oligopoly".
"Good news is many of the best [Firefox] extensions are actively maintained or should be ported in event plugin architecture changes."
That's just not going to happen per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10097630 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10097630 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10099240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10099240 although I suppose there's time for Mozilla to change course, but that would require their current management to get a clue or be replaced. One bottom line for me is that Servo should be a Maximum Effort instead of a "research project". There's a lot more to be said, but probably best by email if you're interested (hga@ancell-ent.com).
Me-> "starting with an Raspberry Pi seL4 port (I know, stop laughing, it's the most stable (long life promise)"
"It and Beagle port."
I seriously considered the Beagle ecosystem, but noted it's not "stable", TI makes no representation about continuing manufacture of any given board, and the earlier (and $$$) non-Bone ones don't seem to be available. But the BeagleBone Black (BBB) was a surprise smash hit (good price + very capable industrial controller SoC, e.g. can implement a 100MHz logic analyzer), so much so it had limited availability for more than a year, and now two companies are making them.
But the Raspberry Pi huge, and committed to continued manufacture of their boards, albeit with respins. And a lot cheaper, BBB $55, first gen Pis $25 and $30, new Pi 2 $40; for just messing with seL4 I bought a $25 A+. The TCB is ridiculous, albeit ideal for for OEMs, but all things considered I judged it the best for an initial learning platform. If the BBB shows staying power I'll seriously consider it.
- nickpsecurity 11y agoInteresting background. You worked on a bit more interesting projects than me as mine were limited by spare time and cash. Anyway, how would you explain to someone who learned computing in the 90's why ITS was an excellent design vs UNIX? Does the Wikipedia article cover it? Was some amazing features given the time period. I remember there were references to it in the UNIX Hater's Handbook, too. Their crash-proofing strategy was ingenius, too. Doubt it would work with today's trolls but good for that crowd. "going to look at ML next" Do Ocaml for its maturity. However, if you like TCB's, might be worth it to see if FLINT certifying compiler for ML works on modern stuff and passes a battery of tests. Source-to-object code assurance plus ML correctness is powerful for tool development. My recurring idea is combining a version of it with programs extracted from Coq specifications for robust tooling. "a modern web browser is a non-negotiable for users" Maybe. Lots of large companies get by forcing use of terminals, client-server, and minimalist web stuff. There's also browser ports to alternative OS's like Haiku, MorphOS, and even OpenVMS at one point. So, there's room for tradeoffs. Past that, create a Linux API in a VM and put it in there. " the flip side of the "oligopoly" is only having to convince 4 organizations (Apple, Google, Microsoft, Mozilla)" I'm hoping that's the case. Microsoft prototyping one with Mozilla, JS as assembly, and HTML5 provide some hope. Doubt we'll get something radical like Juice project that's really better, though. I'm watching WebAssembly from a distance to see how it plays out. "that Richard Gabriel was getting at" Damnit, I reference that meme here all the time lol. He went back and forth with me knowing it was true after seeing the first essay. Spread like a virus with just good enough done the way others are doing it. The lesson to learn. Hard to get quality or security that way, though. Call up Trusted Xenix people to see where... wait, they don't exist anymore!? Getting browser vendors on this is low probability of success. It's why we're all working around (HW/kernel stuff) and sometimes right through them (eg compiler stuff). As you said, it's too complicated and several scheming-ass companies are in control of it. I'll add too much legacy code. Although strange that Mozilla is throwing away a lot of theirs: might be killing their differentiator. Not sure as I'd have to see why various people used it. "I seriously considered the Beagle ecosystem, but noted it's not "stable"," Good arguments against Beagle and for Rasp Pi. Yeah, seL4 is a start. Remember, though, that it's just a separation kernel: you have to build everything useful. Very barebones. You have your work cut out for you.