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I'm surprised that the oppressive language ("gay shit" and "fucking nerds") didn't come to a head sooner. I've kicked people out of hackathons for less. Why l

by jMyles 11y ago

I'm surprised that the oppressive language ("gay shit" and "fucking nerds") didn't come to a head sooner. I've kicked people out of hackathons for less. Why let this slide in awkward silence?

devit 11y ago
Is it more oppressive to utter two words or kick someone out of a social gathering?
- jMyles 11y ago
  If someone starts throwing slurs around, kick them out. I'm not saying ban them, but say, "Hey, you can't say that here. I need to ask you got take a walk and get your shit together. Come back after lunch and try again." Then maybe that night send an email saying "We've all said stupid shit, but I can't have people telling a copy editor to put 'stupid gay shit' on a page. We're going to lose people that way. Just be a little more sensitive to your surroundings and you'll be fine." But the "fucking nerds" thing? No, I don't think I'll kick someone out for that, but I will most certainly pull them aside and say, "Listen, dude. You've got some talent and some experience around this table. We're all people - our goals as humans are basically the same - to be healthy, socially active, highly collaborative friends with good careers and hobbies and whatever. Nobody is here to be your nerd. If you're part of the team, be that and show that. Most of all, if you have something to say about the structure of this team, do not - EVER - do it in 'half-joking' way. That shit is toxic and it's not welcome here." So yes, in both cases, I think that an intervention was required and I'm surprised that one didn't occur.
notNow 11y ago
You mean offensive not oppressive and as with everything it depends on context and really Bobby doesn't come off as straight as an arrow to me, he's as shady as he claims Billy to be and if he got his way and Billy paid him off, I bet my right arm we wouldn't have heard about those slurs at all but it's in his best interest to stir the pot and defame Billy.
- commentzorro 11y ago
  > ...he's as shady as he claims Billy to be... Would you cite the text where you decided this? I'm not seeing it but likely read with a different tone. > ...I bet that if he got his way and Billy paid him off... Again, I'm not seeing this. Do you mean paying him 1/9th of the money and parting ways?
  - notNow 11y ago
    Would you cite the text where you decided this? I'm not seeing it but likely read with a different tone. Didn't you read the "we devs are taking over the world" part and the infamous Andreessen's quote? That's evil in my book. Do you mean paying him 1/9th of the money and parting ways? If Bobby was paid or compensated as he had expected, we wouldn't know about these incidents involving those slurs. That's my point.
    - dantillberg 11y ago
      The text you quote is not in the article. Perhaps you mean this?: > Actually, we are in charge now. You just haven’t realized it yet. Automate or be automated. If you don’t know how to map out complex systems. If you never got grounded as a kid for taking things apart. If you are too lazy or unwilling to learn our ways. If you don’t work for us yet, you soon will. Because software is eating the world. These are things that software engineers tell themselves after they have been bullied in the business world to remind themselves that they are valuable and that they should be respected, despite encountering people sometimes that place no value or respect in either them or the work that they perform. Perhaps you could try and share what about the text feels evil to you, though? Why does it feel threatening to you?
      - ambicapter 11y ago
        Not OP but if you can't tell how vindictive that sounds, I guess we just come from different worlds. I certainly wouldn't trust someone who said that in a position of power over others in the slightest.
      - 11y ago
dantillberg 11y ago
I think that folks have widely varying tolerances for language ("oppressive" is a good word for it) of this sort. Context matters, too, but it doesn't mitigate in this case because it is directed at Bobby and his peers. It would be a little different, for example, if it was directed at hypothetical competitors, or at Comcast; but to insult your teammates (or as Billy saw it, employees) to their faces is something else. I've personally grown to be fairly intolerant of screed like this, and language of this sort has been a factor (among other factors) behind me leaving at least one job now. But it's costly (in dollars) to vote with your feet like that. At the end of the day, we all need to pay the bills.
jazzyk 11y ago
Words do not offend me per se, but to me such utterances are a huge warning flag - they indicate a certain personality that I usually do not wish to associate myself with
aaronbasssett 11y ago
I can't find a code of conduct on the Startup Weekend site. Perhaps it's time they introduce one.
jqm 11y ago
I'm a bit curious. How much less have you kicked people out of hackathons for? I'm not really into insulting people, but I never know what the limits of speech are nowadays. I also don't attend hackathons but just in case.....
- jMyles 11y ago
  Haha, to be honest, I was exaggerating. I've never kicked anyone out for less. I did kick someone out (for the day, not ban them) for a similar - arguably slightly worse - comment.

by jMyles 11y ago

I'm surprised that the oppressive language ("gay shit" and "fucking nerds") didn't come to a head sooner. I've kicked people out of hackathons for less. Why let this slide in awkward silence?

devit 11y ago

Is it more oppressive to utter two words or kick someone out of a social gathering?

jMyles 11y ago
If someone starts throwing slurs around, kick them out. I'm not saying ban them, but say, "Hey, you can't say that here. I need to ask you got take a walk and get your shit together. Come back after lunch and try again." Then maybe that night send an email saying "We've all said stupid shit, but I can't have people telling a copy editor to put 'stupid gay shit' on a page. We're going to lose people that way. Just be a little more sensitive to your surroundings and you'll be fine." But the "fucking nerds" thing? No, I don't think I'll kick someone out for that, but I will most certainly pull them aside and say, "Listen, dude. You've got some talent and some experience around this table. We're all people - our goals as humans are basically the same - to be healthy, socially active, highly collaborative friends with good careers and hobbies and whatever. Nobody is here to be your nerd. If you're part of the team, be that and show that. Most of all, if you have something to say about the structure of this team, do not - EVER - do it in 'half-joking' way. That shit is toxic and it's not welcome here." So yes, in both cases, I think that an intervention was required and I'm surprised that one didn't occur.

notNow 11y ago

You mean offensive not oppressive and as with everything it depends on context and really Bobby doesn't come off as straight as an arrow to me, he's as shady as he claims Billy to be and if he got his way and Billy paid him off, I bet my right arm we wouldn't have heard about those slurs at all but it's in his best interest to stir the pot and defame Billy.

commentzorro 11y ago
> ...he's as shady as he claims Billy to be... Would you cite the text where you decided this? I'm not seeing it but likely read with a different tone. > ...I bet that if he got his way and Billy paid him off... Again, I'm not seeing this. Do you mean paying him 1/9th of the money and parting ways?
- notNow 11y ago
  Would you cite the text where you decided this? I'm not seeing it but likely read with a different tone. Didn't you read the "we devs are taking over the world" part and the infamous Andreessen's quote? That's evil in my book. Do you mean paying him 1/9th of the money and parting ways? If Bobby was paid or compensated as he had expected, we wouldn't know about these incidents involving those slurs. That's my point.
  - dantillberg 11y ago
    The text you quote is not in the article. Perhaps you mean this?: > Actually, we are in charge now. You just haven’t realized it yet. Automate or be automated. If you don’t know how to map out complex systems. If you never got grounded as a kid for taking things apart. If you are too lazy or unwilling to learn our ways. If you don’t work for us yet, you soon will. Because software is eating the world. These are things that software engineers tell themselves after they have been bullied in the business world to remind themselves that they are valuable and that they should be respected, despite encountering people sometimes that place no value or respect in either them or the work that they perform. Perhaps you could try and share what about the text feels evil to you, though? Why does it feel threatening to you?
    - ambicapter 11y ago
      Not OP but if you can't tell how vindictive that sounds, I guess we just come from different worlds. I certainly wouldn't trust someone who said that in a position of power over others in the slightest.
    - 11y ago

dantillberg 11y ago

I think that folks have widely varying tolerances for language ("oppressive" is a good word for it) of this sort. Context matters, too, but it doesn't mitigate in this case because it is directed at Bobby and his peers. It would be a little different, for example, if it was directed at hypothetical competitors, or at Comcast; but to insult your teammates (or as Billy saw it, employees) to their faces is something else. I've personally grown to be fairly intolerant of screed like this, and language of this sort has been a factor (among other factors) behind me leaving at least one job now. But it's costly (in dollars) to vote with your feet like that. At the end of the day, we all need to pay the bills.

jazzyk 11y ago

Words do not offend me per se, but to me such utterances are a huge warning flag - they indicate a certain personality that I usually do not wish to associate myself with

aaronbasssett 11y ago

I can't find a code of conduct on the Startup Weekend site. Perhaps it's time they introduce one.

jqm 11y ago

I'm a bit curious. How much less have you kicked people out of hackathons for? I'm not really into insulting people, but I never know what the limits of speech are nowadays. I also don't attend hackathons but just in case.....

jMyles 11y ago
Haha, to be honest, I was exaggerating. I've never kicked anyone out for less. I did kick someone out (for the day, not ban them) for a similar - arguably slightly worse - comment.