8 ms·

I saw my first "restart to install updates" dialog in Debian this week. SystemD is cargo-culting Windows.

by yarrel 11y ago

throwaway7767 11y ago
So you have not been rebooting when you update kernels up until now? That might leave you open to security vulnerabilities. You don't specify which update tool you are using, but if it hasn't shown you that screen before that sounds like a bug. EDIT: replying to digi_owl, as HN won't allow me to reply at a deeper nesting level. > 1. you can actually do a kernel update without a reboot now, using certain tools. To my knowledge, none of them are supported by debian, which was what the OP was talking about. Maybe he's using them, but then, it seems weird to complain about debian requiring reboots if he's gone to such lengths to prevent that problem in the past. > 2. dbus was a reimplementation in C of dcop, the KDE IPC system. It was aimed at allowing desktop programs to talk to each other, not carry the whole OS on its back. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything in my post. > 3. drop the attitude. Or are you deliberately trying to derail the topic? I'm not sure what attitude you refer to, it was not my intention to come off as hostile. Apologies to the GGP if that's how it sounded. I was merely pointing out that reboots for upgrades are not a new thing in debian, as the GGP seemed to be implying.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  1. you can actually do a kernel update without a reboot now, using certain tools. 2. dbus was a reimplementation in C of dcop, the KDE IPC system. It was aimed at allowing desktop programs to talk to each other, not carry the whole OS on its back. 3. drop the attitude. Or are you deliberately trying to derail the topic?
  - iso8859-1 11y ago
    reimplementation? it's totally different!
  - icebraining 11y ago
    1. you can actually do a kernel update without a reboot now, using certain tools. Which Debian doesn't officially support, so they can't be expected to write update scripts for that use case.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  HN won't allow me to reply at a deeper nesting level Click on the timestamp of a post to get an immediate reply area.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Yep, the in-thread reply link seems to stay hidden for something like a minute after the post is made. I guess they want to avoid flamewars...
shmerl 11y ago
Reboots aren't that uncommon once you hit stuff like updating the kernel, kernel modules, systemd itself and etc. I never got that notion that Linux doesn't require rebooting with updates. It's not always necessary, but with certain updates it always happens. May be in the future there will be a way to do it all dynamically without rebooting, but it didn't happen yet.
- gizmo686 11y ago
  Linux supports replacing the kernel without a reboot (see kexec), but I doubt we will ever see a time where the benefits of doing so outweigh the complexity and risk of error in the general case.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    It can certainly be done properly, even on relatively static systems like Unix. See Cristiano Giuffrida's Ph.D. thesis on "Safe and Automatic Live Update" [1], or, if you don't want to skim through 197 pages, the significantly shorter master's thesis "Safe and Automatic Live Update for Unix Applications" [2] by Calin Iorgulescu. The research has been supervised by AST and since incorporated into MINIX 3. [1] http://www.minix3.org/theses/Cristiano_Giuffrida_PhD_thesis.pdf http://www.minix3.org/theses/Cristiano_Giuffrida_PhD_thesis.... [2] http://www.minix3.org/theses/Calin_Iorgulescu_Master_Thesis.pdf http://www.minix3.org/theses/Calin_Iorgulescu_Master_Thesis....
  - heinrich5991 11y ago
    As I understand it, it still has to bring down the whole system (I mean all processes) in order to do that – isn't that functionally equivalent to a reboot?
    - icebraining 11y ago
      kexec does, but Ksplice and kpatch don't, they just pause the processes momentarily.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
I've been getting that for years with ubuntu.
jryan49 11y ago
That has NOTHING to do with systemd. I'm getting sick of people blaming everything on systemd who don't even know what they're talking about.
- JdeBP 11y ago
  * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates * http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/SystemUpdates/ http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/SystemUpdates/ * http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-system-update-generator.html http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-syst... * https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2015/08/thrd2.html#00482 https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2015/08/thrd2.html#004... I look at the above; I look at what was said by the person that you're replying to; and the conclusion as to whether that person knows what xe is talking about comes out rather differently.
  - deleted 11y ago
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  - deleted 11y ago
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  - jryan49 11y ago
    This is a feature that systemd provides. It is the distro's choice to use it. Arch doesn't use this. Arch uses systemd. edit: Look how Arch dev says they won't probably ever use it: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=145265 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=145265, just because systemd gives you an ability to do something people actually want, you can't blame systemd for a distro that uses that feature.

I saw my first "restart to install updates" dialog in Debian this week. SystemD is cargo-culting Windows.

by yarrel 11y ago

I saw my first "restart to install updates" dialog in Debian this week. SystemD is cargo-culting Windows.

So you have not been rebooting when you update kernels up until now? That might leave you open to security vulnerabilities. You don't specify which update tool you are using, but if it hasn't shown you that screen before that sounds like a bug. EDIT: replying to digi_owl, as HN won't allow me to reply at a deeper nesting level. > 1. you can actually do a kernel update without a reboot now, using certain tools. To my knowledge, none of them are supported by debian, which was what the OP was talking about. Maybe he's using them, but then, it seems weird to complain about debian requiring reboots if he's gone to such lengths to prevent that problem in the past. > 2. dbus was a reimplementation in C of dcop, the KDE IPC system. It was aimed at allowing desktop programs to talk to each other, not carry the whole OS on its back. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything in my post. > 3. drop the attitude. Or are you deliberately trying to derail the topic? I'm not sure what attitude you refer to, it was not my intention to come off as hostile. Apologies to the GGP if that's how it sounded. I was merely pointing out that reboots for upgrades are not a new thing in debian, as the GGP seemed to be implying.

digi_owl 11y ago
1. you can actually do a kernel update without a reboot now, using certain tools. 2. dbus was a reimplementation in C of dcop, the KDE IPC system. It was aimed at allowing desktop programs to talk to each other, not carry the whole OS on its back. 3. drop the attitude. Or are you deliberately trying to derail the topic?
- iso8859-1 11y ago
  reimplementation? it's totally different!
- icebraining 11y ago
  1. you can actually do a kernel update without a reboot now, using certain tools. Which Debian doesn't officially support, so they can't be expected to write update scripts for that use case.
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
HN won't allow me to reply at a deeper nesting level Click on the timestamp of a post to get an immediate reply area.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Yep, the in-thread reply link seems to stay hidden for something like a minute after the post is made. I guess they want to avoid flamewars...

shmerl 11y ago

Reboots aren't that uncommon once you hit stuff like updating the kernel, kernel modules, systemd itself and etc. I never got that notion that Linux doesn't require rebooting with updates. It's not always necessary, but with certain updates it always happens. May be in the future there will be a way to do it all dynamically without rebooting, but it didn't happen yet.

gizmo686 11y ago
Linux supports replacing the kernel without a reboot (see kexec), but I doubt we will ever see a time where the benefits of doing so outweigh the complexity and risk of error in the general case.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  It can certainly be done properly, even on relatively static systems like Unix. See Cristiano Giuffrida's Ph.D. thesis on "Safe and Automatic Live Update" [1], or, if you don't want to skim through 197 pages, the significantly shorter master's thesis "Safe and Automatic Live Update for Unix Applications" [2] by Calin Iorgulescu. The research has been supervised by AST and since incorporated into MINIX 3. [1] http://www.minix3.org/theses/Cristiano_Giuffrida_PhD_thesis.pdf http://www.minix3.org/theses/Cristiano_Giuffrida_PhD_thesis.... [2] http://www.minix3.org/theses/Calin_Iorgulescu_Master_Thesis.pdf http://www.minix3.org/theses/Calin_Iorgulescu_Master_Thesis....
- heinrich5991 11y ago
  As I understand it, it still has to bring down the whole system (I mean all processes) in order to do that – isn't that functionally equivalent to a reboot?
  - icebraining 11y ago
    kexec does, but Ksplice and kpatch don't, they just pause the processes momentarily.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago

I've been getting that for years with ubuntu.

jryan49 11y ago

That has NOTHING to do with systemd. I'm getting sick of people blaming everything on systemd who don't even know what they're talking about.

JdeBP 11y ago
* https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates * http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/SystemUpdates/ http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/SystemUpdates/ * http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-system-update-generator.html http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-syst... * https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2015/08/thrd2.html#00482 https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2015/08/thrd2.html#004... I look at the above; I look at what was said by the person that you're replying to; and the conclusion as to whether that person knows what xe is talking about comes out rather differently.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- jryan49 11y ago
  This is a feature that systemd provides. It is the distro's choice to use it. Arch doesn't use this. Arch uses systemd. edit: Look how Arch dev says they won't probably ever use it: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=145265 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=145265, just because systemd gives you an ability to do something people actually want, you can't blame systemd for a distro that uses that feature.