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>It's amazing how humans love the strong leader (Trump is capitalizing on this) and how we love to take sides against and enemy or other (sports, etc.) Growing

>It's amazing how humans love the strong leader (Trump is capitalizing on this) and how we love to take sides against and enemy or other (sports, etc.) Growing up in a strong religious culture (though not a cult) that I later became disillusioned with, it almost hurt noticing the same trends in so many other areas of life that one would think immune from it. From sports to academics to social movements. There is something inside of humans that has for centuries made religion very popular. Even now that many have been able to leave religion behind, what ever that is deep inside of use still exists and it is influencing the new social groups we form, creating systems of beliefs and rituals.

humanrebar 11y ago
...it seems fair give a theist take on an agnostic or atheist thought. People expect leaders that are: * strong * fair * capable * intelligent * loyal * available * caring * personal * decisive * on top of things * courageous People who believe in God see that as a list only God himself could check off. That means we have an innate desire for a leader with the qualities of God himself. To the extent that people try to find perfect leadership in imperfect men and ideas, they will be disappointed. Pick literally any names: Bush, Obama, Trump, Jobs, Gates, Musk -- even Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Dr. King and Thomas Jefferson. So we become disappointed and move on to other people and concepts. Or we find God as He is, not just as we would imagine Him, and find peace in belonging to Him. In a more personal take, I tend to be hard on my bosses and organizations; at times I have to remind myself to have reasonable expectations for human leaders.
- Retra 11y ago
  So where'd you find him, and why haven't you elected him president? You said he was available, right? (Or maybe you forget "real" in you list of leadership qualities?)
  - humanrebar 11y ago
    What makes you think He isn't real?
    - Retra 11y ago
      Perhaps you should first articulate what you think makes something real or not.
    - Apofis 11y ago
      What makes you think "He" is?
      - humanrebar 11y ago
        I was mainly pointing out that the presumption of a universe without any gods is just that, a presumption. Anyway, on the off chance that you (or someone else) want a real answer: * I decided to give God a shot and He proved himself. It's surprising the number of people that presume God doesn't exist without actually asking Him if He's there and if He cares. * Christian theology makes a lot of sense. It provides for dignity and equality of all people. It provides for mercy and reconciliation and harmony. It provides for justice and protection of the downtrodden and wronged. It provides meaning for everyone regardless of ability or circumstances. It's simultaneously simple enough for anyone to grasp and deep enough to challenge our greatest minds. Maybe that's not useful to you... here's a good talk Tim Keller gave at Google that can talk to it better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxup3OS5ZhQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxup3OS5ZhQ
        daviross 11y ago
        without actually asking Him if He's there and if He cares. I'm curious. What does this response look like? I can't say I've ever seen anything which would seem to match this, and it's definitely a question I've wondered about when I was a kid falling out of a sense of faith.
        humanrebar 11y ago
Apocryphon 11y ago
You're comparing different types of social groups to religion, but I think the answer is more mundane than that. Religion is a social group just any of those, it just happens to seem more archaic in the modern day. But those other social groups are just as easily influenced by irrationality, strongman dominance, infighting, and dynamics as religion. Getting rid of religion doesn't get rid of human nature.
- humanrebar 11y ago
  > ...it just happens to seem more archaic in the modern day... To you, perhaps. It's pretty patronizing and narrow-minded to write off the views of billions of people as "archaic". In fact, theism is so common that you'd have to be in some kind of bubble to not have any friends, colleagues, or acquaintances that are theists. I'm sure they'd be disappointed (if not offended) to hear you refer to their beliefs like that. If you want people to keep their religion to themselves, you should really treat their beliefs with a modicum of respect. Otherwise, you're just being abusive. But your main point is well taken; infighting, irrationality, hypocrisy, and other bad behavior are certainly not unique to religious groups. Humanity is a much more common factor than theism.
  - Apocryphon 11y ago
    Actually, I agree. I hold religion in esteem, and I believe it's an institution and central part of culture that should remain part of the human experience. (And it will, anyway, even if we end up worshipping a 'religion' of the Word of pg, or a cult of the imminent eschaton of the Singularity.) I just mean "archaic" because a lot of people here on HN, including the comment I was responding to, probably view it as such, and to some degree 'traditional religion' is becoming archaic in many parts of the world. But does not mean there will not be new ones. As well all know, deprecated does not necessarily mean obsoleted. That is deprecated can eternal lie, and with odd futures even faith may fly.
fandb 11y ago
>> There is something inside of humans that has for centuries made religion very popular. Yes.
crusso 11y ago
There is something inside of humans that has for centuries made religion very popular More like millenia. When your little neo-human tribe could be coerced as a group into attacking the nearby human tribe to take their women and eliminate them as competitors for resources, the chances that your genes would survive went up. Religion and general leader following were great tools for group coordinated action. Any mutations in the brain that benefited those group coordinated actions tended to survive and spread. Religious propensity was a survival trait.
- humanrebar 11y ago
  That's an interesting theory with absolutely no evidence to support it.
  - crusso 11y ago
    Countless hours of simulation tell me that in a world of limited resource induced competition, coordinated action is of paramount importance. Any trait (gene) that improves coordinated action is of benefit. Of course, my hours of simulation are playing chess, Risk, Warcraft, and numerous other games -- but there's a reason those concepts are so often the core of games: they parallel real life and our desire to win at life. Even modern psychology is fairly light on things that are proven. Insisting on proof to discuss psychological origins that we can't really test on real proto-humans before we even discuss it is just an attempt to shut down unpleasant ideas, like the idea that most religious beliefs are myths.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    But that is not a reason to dismiss it. It is still not inherently incapable of being tested, but it may still be quite some time before science is at a point where hypotheses from evolutionary psychology/sociology can be tested in the same way that hypotheses in evolutionary biology can. Imagine how little there was to support Darwin originally and how much technology that now is used to find the evidence that supports evolution did not exist back in his time.
    - 11y ago

humanrebar 11y ago

...it seems fair give a theist take on an agnostic or atheist thought. People expect leaders that are: * strong * fair * capable * intelligent * loyal * available * caring * personal * decisive * on top of things * courageous People who believe in God see that as a list only God himself could check off. That means we have an innate desire for a leader with the qualities of God himself. To the extent that people try to find perfect leadership in imperfect men and ideas, they will be disappointed. Pick literally any names: Bush, Obama, Trump, Jobs, Gates, Musk -- even Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Dr. King and Thomas Jefferson. So we become disappointed and move on to other people and concepts. Or we find God as He is, not just as we would imagine Him, and find peace in belonging to Him. In a more personal take, I tend to be hard on my bosses and organizations; at times I have to remind myself to have reasonable expectations for human leaders.

Retra 11y ago
So where'd you find him, and why haven't you elected him president? You said he was available, right? (Or maybe you forget "real" in you list of leadership qualities?)
- humanrebar 11y ago
  What makes you think He isn't real?
  - Retra 11y ago
    Perhaps you should first articulate what you think makes something real or not.
  - Apofis 11y ago
    What makes you think "He" is?
    - humanrebar 11y ago
      I was mainly pointing out that the presumption of a universe without any gods is just that, a presumption. Anyway, on the off chance that you (or someone else) want a real answer: * I decided to give God a shot and He proved himself. It's surprising the number of people that presume God doesn't exist without actually asking Him if He's there and if He cares. * Christian theology makes a lot of sense. It provides for dignity and equality of all people. It provides for mercy and reconciliation and harmony. It provides for justice and protection of the downtrodden and wronged. It provides meaning for everyone regardless of ability or circumstances. It's simultaneously simple enough for anyone to grasp and deep enough to challenge our greatest minds. Maybe that's not useful to you... here's a good talk Tim Keller gave at Google that can talk to it better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxup3OS5ZhQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxup3OS5ZhQ
      - daviross 11y ago
        without actually asking Him if He's there and if He cares. I'm curious. What does this response look like? I can't say I've ever seen anything which would seem to match this, and it's definitely a question I've wondered about when I was a kid falling out of a sense of faith.
        humanrebar 11y ago

Apocryphon 11y ago

You're comparing different types of social groups to religion, but I think the answer is more mundane than that. Religion is a social group just any of those, it just happens to seem more archaic in the modern day. But those other social groups are just as easily influenced by irrationality, strongman dominance, infighting, and dynamics as religion. Getting rid of religion doesn't get rid of human nature.

humanrebar 11y ago
> ...it just happens to seem more archaic in the modern day... To you, perhaps. It's pretty patronizing and narrow-minded to write off the views of billions of people as "archaic". In fact, theism is so common that you'd have to be in some kind of bubble to not have any friends, colleagues, or acquaintances that are theists. I'm sure they'd be disappointed (if not offended) to hear you refer to their beliefs like that. If you want people to keep their religion to themselves, you should really treat their beliefs with a modicum of respect. Otherwise, you're just being abusive. But your main point is well taken; infighting, irrationality, hypocrisy, and other bad behavior are certainly not unique to religious groups. Humanity is a much more common factor than theism.
- Apocryphon 11y ago
  Actually, I agree. I hold religion in esteem, and I believe it's an institution and central part of culture that should remain part of the human experience. (And it will, anyway, even if we end up worshipping a 'religion' of the Word of pg, or a cult of the imminent eschaton of the Singularity.) I just mean "archaic" because a lot of people here on HN, including the comment I was responding to, probably view it as such, and to some degree 'traditional religion' is becoming archaic in many parts of the world. But does not mean there will not be new ones. As well all know, deprecated does not necessarily mean obsoleted. That is deprecated can eternal lie, and with odd futures even faith may fly.

fandb 11y ago

>> There is something inside of humans that has for centuries made religion very popular. Yes.

crusso 11y ago

There is something inside of humans that has for centuries made religion very popular More like millenia. When your little neo-human tribe could be coerced as a group into attacking the nearby human tribe to take their women and eliminate them as competitors for resources, the chances that your genes would survive went up. Religion and general leader following were great tools for group coordinated action. Any mutations in the brain that benefited those group coordinated actions tended to survive and spread. Religious propensity was a survival trait.

humanrebar 11y ago
That's an interesting theory with absolutely no evidence to support it.
- crusso 11y ago
  Countless hours of simulation tell me that in a world of limited resource induced competition, coordinated action is of paramount importance. Any trait (gene) that improves coordinated action is of benefit. Of course, my hours of simulation are playing chess, Risk, Warcraft, and numerous other games -- but there's a reason those concepts are so often the core of games: they parallel real life and our desire to win at life. Even modern psychology is fairly light on things that are proven. Insisting on proof to discuss psychological origins that we can't really test on real proto-humans before we even discuss it is just an attempt to shut down unpleasant ideas, like the idea that most religious beliefs are myths.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  But that is not a reason to dismiss it. It is still not inherently incapable of being tested, but it may still be quite some time before science is at a point where hypotheses from evolutionary psychology/sociology can be tested in the same way that hypotheses in evolutionary biology can. Imagine how little there was to support Darwin originally and how much technology that now is used to find the evidence that supports evolution did not exist back in his time.
  - 11y ago