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> What is the ultimate goal you wish to achieve? Do you want to be known as the "gay black guy", or just another human friend? The fact that you think this is

> What is the ultimate goal you wish to achieve? Do you want to be known as the "gay black guy", or just another human friend? The fact that you think this is a dichotomy is why the whole proposal sounds ridiculous to you. What if people don't want to feel that they have to choose between expressing their racial/sexual identity and being accepted as a human? Do you seriously not understand that that is the issue -- the fact that the issue is presented as a binary and exclusive choice: either express your atypical cultural traits or receive "normal" treatment, but not both. > The trans-gender, sexual-orientation debate gets specific, but it's irrelevant in the end. Do you realize that you're calling irrelevant the core feature of many peoples' identity? The only people who can spout this and seriously wonder why nobody else sees it this way are people who fit into mainstream, typical populations and are completely unable to take into account the fact that their own cultural affinities are accepted as normal. In other words: you already enjoy the acceptance which you are blithely dismissing as a worthless goal for others to pursue.

13thLetter 11y ago
> Do you realize that you're calling irrelevant the core feature of many peoples' identity? As long as people are treated with a minimum level of civility and not discriminated against for irrelevant personal characteristics, their "identities" are irrelevant. I don't want to know or care about the "identity" of most people I interact with, and I guarantee you they don't want to know or care about mine. We're all very busy.
- bakhy 11y ago
  did you notice that this site is called "Hacker News" - maybe they should change that name to "People News" :D
tcdent 11y ago
First, this is not a debate about wether oppression exists; obviously it does. I'm asking if team-sports-like brand exclusivity is right, when our ultimate goal should be the acceptance of everyone. Do think about why you insist on labeling yourself. I don't care if you're gay, and it's certainly not the most important thing I want to hear about you. If we're not talking about sex, why would you bring up your sexual orientation? Do you think that just because I don't shave, and have subsequently grown a long beard, that I should identify with all the other guys that have beards? Or that I only donate my money only to organizations who are friendly to bearded people? Or that I might have a slightly harder time convincing people of my professionalism, but think that's OK, because I believe in my choice? I am not untitled because I am following others, I am untitled because I am unique and un-titleable.
- bakhy 11y ago
  excuse me, but you are being very discriminatory. > If we're not talking about sex, why would you bring up your sexual orientation? because it's a big part of who i am. to give a simple example of just how thoroughly oblivious you are - i was invited to many hetero weddings, some pretty big ones, and it had not once occurred to me to come up to the bride and groom and say: "you know, do all these people really need to know you two are fucking?!" love is a big deal in everyone's life, and i won't stick mine in a closet because you don't want to hear it. but please, don't let my lived experience or the simple reality of the success of the LGBT rights movement, which is argument enough against your Nirvana-fallacy bullshit, stop you in lecturing other people what's best for them. P.S. another confirmation of obliviousness, or maybe even bad intentions - nobody said you were following anyone. get it?
  - BinaryIdiot 11y ago
    > because it's a big part of who i am. to give a simple example of just how thoroughly oblivious you are - i was invited to many hetero weddings, some pretty big ones, and it had not once occurred to me to come up to the bride and groom and say: "you know, do all these people really need to know you two are fucking?!" > love is a big deal in everyone's life, and i won't stick mine in a closet because you don't want to hear it. I don't really think that's a fair comparison. A wedding is a public celebration between two people so of course they want everyone to know that they're celebrating something. But your own sexual orientation? How do you bring that up in a conversation not about sexual orientation? I don't care what someone's orientation is, they can be whatever they want, but if I'm meeting someone for the first time why do I need to know about their orientation? Obviously no one here is saying to HIDE your orientation but, at least for me, being heterosexual doesn't make me who I am, does being homosexual really make people who they are? I feel like that's separate from sexual orientation. In my opinion at least.
- jessedhillon 11y ago
  > Do think about why you insist on labeling yourself. I don't care if you're gay, and it's certainly not the most important thing I want to hear about you. Ah, surely what's most important about me are the things you want to hear about. > I am not untitled because I am following others, I am untitled because I am unique and un-titleable. But these are not labels, and are in no way ideas about yourself to which you attach an undue importance. If I were to blithely negate your perceived individuality by suggesting that you were utterly banal and unoriginal, that certainly wouldn't be a blow to your nameless ego, right?

13thLetter 11y ago

> Do you realize that you're calling irrelevant the core feature of many peoples' identity? As long as people are treated with a minimum level of civility and not discriminated against for irrelevant personal characteristics, their "identities" are irrelevant. I don't want to know or care about the "identity" of most people I interact with, and I guarantee you they don't want to know or care about mine. We're all very busy.

bakhy 11y ago
did you notice that this site is called "Hacker News" - maybe they should change that name to "People News" :D

tcdent 11y ago

First, this is not a debate about wether oppression exists; obviously it does. I'm asking if team-sports-like brand exclusivity is right, when our ultimate goal should be the acceptance of everyone. Do think about why you insist on labeling yourself. I don't care if you're gay, and it's certainly not the most important thing I want to hear about you. If we're not talking about sex, why would you bring up your sexual orientation? Do you think that just because I don't shave, and have subsequently grown a long beard, that I should identify with all the other guys that have beards? Or that I only donate my money only to organizations who are friendly to bearded people? Or that I might have a slightly harder time convincing people of my professionalism, but think that's OK, because I believe in my choice? I am not untitled because I am following others, I am untitled because I am unique and un-titleable.

bakhy 11y ago
excuse me, but you are being very discriminatory. > If we're not talking about sex, why would you bring up your sexual orientation? because it's a big part of who i am. to give a simple example of just how thoroughly oblivious you are - i was invited to many hetero weddings, some pretty big ones, and it had not once occurred to me to come up to the bride and groom and say: "you know, do all these people really need to know you two are fucking?!" love is a big deal in everyone's life, and i won't stick mine in a closet because you don't want to hear it. but please, don't let my lived experience or the simple reality of the success of the LGBT rights movement, which is argument enough against your Nirvana-fallacy bullshit, stop you in lecturing other people what's best for them. P.S. another confirmation of obliviousness, or maybe even bad intentions - nobody said you were following anyone. get it?
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  > because it's a big part of who i am. to give a simple example of just how thoroughly oblivious you are - i was invited to many hetero weddings, some pretty big ones, and it had not once occurred to me to come up to the bride and groom and say: "you know, do all these people really need to know you two are fucking?!" > love is a big deal in everyone's life, and i won't stick mine in a closet because you don't want to hear it. I don't really think that's a fair comparison. A wedding is a public celebration between two people so of course they want everyone to know that they're celebrating something. But your own sexual orientation? How do you bring that up in a conversation not about sexual orientation? I don't care what someone's orientation is, they can be whatever they want, but if I'm meeting someone for the first time why do I need to know about their orientation? Obviously no one here is saying to HIDE your orientation but, at least for me, being heterosexual doesn't make me who I am, does being homosexual really make people who they are? I feel like that's separate from sexual orientation. In my opinion at least.
jessedhillon 11y ago
> Do think about why you insist on labeling yourself. I don't care if you're gay, and it's certainly not the most important thing I want to hear about you. Ah, surely what's most important about me are the things you want to hear about. > I am not untitled because I am following others, I am untitled because I am unique and un-titleable. But these are not labels, and are in no way ideas about yourself to which you attach an undue importance. If I were to blithely negate your perceived individuality by suggesting that you were utterly banal and unoriginal, that certainly wouldn't be a blow to your nameless ego, right?