4 ms·

i disagree with the anti-identification claim. if we indeed do not "see race", then how can we even talk about racism, let alone fix it? this may seem trivial,

by bakhy 11y ago

i disagree with the anti-identification claim. if we indeed do not "see race", then how can we even talk about racism, let alone fix it? this may seem trivial, but it is important. as a gay guy, i've heard similar arguments from people (like, "i don't care about sexuality, as long as you're a good person"), and i believe in good intentions, but many people do "see race", and that creates a social situation where people are disadvantaged because of it. as i said in another comment here, social context is key and should not be ignored. if the scale is tipped to one side, you have to add weight to the other one if you want to balance it out.

tcdent 11y ago
What is the ultimate goal you wish to achieve? Do you want to be known as the "gay black guy", or just another human friend? What if your sexual interests go beyond current definitions; are we to add a new slice to the pie chart simply for one person's identification? The trans-gender, sexual-orientation debate gets specific, but it's irrelevant in the end. As I advised a kid confused about his orientation recently: it doesn't matter what the media labels as OK, it doesn't matter what your family labels as OK, listen to yourself and come up with your own (potentially-unique) ideas and then get on with your life. Nobody is going to tell you how to do it as well as you can tell yourself.
- bakhy 11y ago
  first of all, i AM a gay guy, and anyone who wants to know me must eventually know that as well. i do not find the idea of hiding it or avoiding discussion about it attractive. in an ideal society, it should be as you say - everyone free to be themselves. but we do not live in that society. and if we want to get to that, then we need to take action. and asymmetric situations require asymmetric measures in order to achieve change. i believe your intentions are good, but do you realise that what you're suggesting sounds like we should all pretend that we're not black/white/gay/str8/whatever? it's really silly. for gay people, it was important to show our pride, not because we wanted to label ourselves even more, but because we had to direct attention to the issue to get it fixed, raise our visibility, get heard. and ultimately, going to gay pride was for me an incredibly empowering experience. one cruel thing about systematic discrimination is that the people affected by it often internalize it, and perceive themselves as less worthy. coming together and standing up for ourselves helps fight that too.
- jessedhillon 11y ago
  > What is the ultimate goal you wish to achieve? Do you want to be known as the "gay black guy", or just another human friend? The fact that you think this is a dichotomy is why the whole proposal sounds ridiculous to you. What if people don't want to feel that they have to choose between expressing their racial/sexual identity and being accepted as a human? Do you seriously not understand that that is the issue -- the fact that the issue is presented as a binary and exclusive choice: either express your atypical cultural traits or receive "normal" treatment, but not both. > The trans-gender, sexual-orientation debate gets specific, but it's irrelevant in the end. Do you realize that you're calling irrelevant the core feature of many peoples' identity? The only people who can spout this and seriously wonder why nobody else sees it this way are people who fit into mainstream, typical populations and are completely unable to take into account the fact that their own cultural affinities are accepted as normal. In other words: you already enjoy the acceptance which you are blithely dismissing as a worthless goal for others to pursue.
  - 13thLetter 11y ago
    > Do you realize that you're calling irrelevant the core feature of many peoples' identity? As long as people are treated with a minimum level of civility and not discriminated against for irrelevant personal characteristics, their "identities" are irrelevant. I don't want to know or care about the "identity" of most people I interact with, and I guarantee you they don't want to know or care about mine. We're all very busy.
    - bakhy 11y ago
      did you notice that this site is called "Hacker News" - maybe they should change that name to "People News" :D
  - tcdent 11y ago
    First, this is not a debate about wether oppression exists; obviously it does. I'm asking if team-sports-like brand exclusivity is right, when our ultimate goal should be the acceptance of everyone. Do think about why you insist on labeling yourself. I don't care if you're gay, and it's certainly not the most important thing I want to hear about you. If we're not talking about sex, why would you bring up your sexual orientation? Do you think that just because I don't shave, and have subsequently grown a long beard, that I should identify with all the other guys that have beards? Or that I only donate my money only to organizations who are friendly to bearded people? Or that I might have a slightly harder time convincing people of my professionalism, but think that's OK, because I believe in my choice? I am not untitled because I am following others, I am untitled because I am unique and un-titleable.

by bakhy 11y ago

tcdent 11y ago

What is the ultimate goal you wish to achieve? Do you want to be known as the "gay black guy", or just another human friend? What if your sexual interests go beyond current definitions; are we to add a new slice to the pie chart simply for one person's identification? The trans-gender, sexual-orientation debate gets specific, but it's irrelevant in the end. As I advised a kid confused about his orientation recently: it doesn't matter what the media labels as OK, it doesn't matter what your family labels as OK, listen to yourself and come up with your own (potentially-unique) ideas and then get on with your life. Nobody is going to tell you how to do it as well as you can tell yourself.

bakhy 11y ago
first of all, i AM a gay guy, and anyone who wants to know me must eventually know that as well. i do not find the idea of hiding it or avoiding discussion about it attractive. in an ideal society, it should be as you say - everyone free to be themselves. but we do not live in that society. and if we want to get to that, then we need to take action. and asymmetric situations require asymmetric measures in order to achieve change. i believe your intentions are good, but do you realise that what you're suggesting sounds like we should all pretend that we're not black/white/gay/str8/whatever? it's really silly. for gay people, it was important to show our pride, not because we wanted to label ourselves even more, but because we had to direct attention to the issue to get it fixed, raise our visibility, get heard. and ultimately, going to gay pride was for me an incredibly empowering experience. one cruel thing about systematic discrimination is that the people affected by it often internalize it, and perceive themselves as less worthy. coming together and standing up for ourselves helps fight that too.
jessedhillon 11y ago
> What is the ultimate goal you wish to achieve? Do you want to be known as the "gay black guy", or just another human friend? The fact that you think this is a dichotomy is why the whole proposal sounds ridiculous to you. What if people don't want to feel that they have to choose between expressing their racial/sexual identity and being accepted as a human? Do you seriously not understand that that is the issue -- the fact that the issue is presented as a binary and exclusive choice: either express your atypical cultural traits or receive "normal" treatment, but not both. > The trans-gender, sexual-orientation debate gets specific, but it's irrelevant in the end. Do you realize that you're calling irrelevant the core feature of many peoples' identity? The only people who can spout this and seriously wonder why nobody else sees it this way are people who fit into mainstream, typical populations and are completely unable to take into account the fact that their own cultural affinities are accepted as normal. In other words: you already enjoy the acceptance which you are blithely dismissing as a worthless goal for others to pursue.
- 13thLetter 11y ago
  > Do you realize that you're calling irrelevant the core feature of many peoples' identity? As long as people are treated with a minimum level of civility and not discriminated against for irrelevant personal characteristics, their "identities" are irrelevant. I don't want to know or care about the "identity" of most people I interact with, and I guarantee you they don't want to know or care about mine. We're all very busy.
  - bakhy 11y ago
    did you notice that this site is called "Hacker News" - maybe they should change that name to "People News" :D
- tcdent 11y ago
  First, this is not a debate about wether oppression exists; obviously it does. I'm asking if team-sports-like brand exclusivity is right, when our ultimate goal should be the acceptance of everyone. Do think about why you insist on labeling yourself. I don't care if you're gay, and it's certainly not the most important thing I want to hear about you. If we're not talking about sex, why would you bring up your sexual orientation? Do you think that just because I don't shave, and have subsequently grown a long beard, that I should identify with all the other guys that have beards? Or that I only donate my money only to organizations who are friendly to bearded people? Or that I might have a slightly harder time convincing people of my professionalism, but think that's OK, because I believe in my choice? I am not untitled because I am following others, I am untitled because I am unique and un-titleable.