5 ms·

At the teacher level, they are underpaid. My girlfriend is a high school teacher w/ 4 years experience, a masters degree in her topic, and works 12+ hours a day

At the teacher level, they are underpaid. My girlfriend is a high school teacher w/ 4 years experience, a masters degree in her topic, and works 12+ hours a day (not kidding, seriously all day). She makes $35k / year. How much do teachers in her school system who have 25 years experience make? The union-mandated tenure system, which prevents young, talented teachers from making even vaguely competitive salaries, but rewards older, mediocre teachers with "time served" is part of what's stopping "more money" from being the answer. Higher teacher salaries under the current system would largely reward the oldest, not the best.

PretzelFisch 11y ago
If you put more money into the system, you could be pretty sure that the teachers would not see more than a dime of it. Tenure is what prevents schools from removing a higher cost experienced teacher and replacing them with a cheaper no experienced teachers.
- twoodfin 11y ago
  Microsoft and Google don't fire all their higher cost experienced engineers in favor of cheaper fresh graduates every year. They also don't forbid new engineers from making more than any longer-tenured ones. Why is tenure-based compensation an efficient use of dollars in primary education but not elsewhere?
kdamken 11y ago
This - I know teachers with 25 years experience making close to six figures, which seems fairly insane.
- genghisjahn 11y ago
  Why shouldn't a teacher with 25 years experience not make six figures, or close to it?
  - Silfen 11y ago
    Because it's a function of tenure, and not job performance?
    - panzagl 11y ago
      So they never performed well? Very few jobs have pay that directly correlates to current performance.
- hdctambien 11y ago
  What school district? Teacher salary is public knowledge. There are very few states that pay teachers 6 digits.
panzagl 11y ago
If unions aren't strong in your state generally, then teacher's unions are no different. Too many people jump on teachers in New Jersey making $100K at the end of their career as an excuse to not even try to aim above the bottom of the barrel.
hdctambien 11y ago
In my school district[0] teachers start at $43,500 and max out at $63,688 (after 30 years and a PhD) You can pick up some extra stipends if you coach or work in certian departments (STEM) but good luck getting into 6 digits as a Teacher. When I taught in Massachusetts (where we have a teacher union)[1] pay starts at $36,400 and maxes out at $74,000 (with a PhD) after 19 years. Turns out that public school salary information is public information. So if you "know" a teacher that is making 6 digits, I challenge you to look up their pay scale and see if you really know what you think you know. [0] https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27mc-sxcu8ldW9OTHlLMjZ0SlU/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27mc-sxcu8ldW9OTHlLMjZ0SlU... [1] http://www.pittsfield.net/UserFiles/Servers/Server_1051846/File/Human%20Resources/Contracts/teacher%20k%20(12-15)%20(new%20teacher%20scale)%20(10-22-12)(1).pdf http://www.pittsfield.net/UserFiles/Servers/Server_1051846/F...
- twoodfin 11y ago
  For the record, I didn't make the "6 digit salaries" claim. I'd be thrilled if world-class (or even top 5-10%) teachers could command those kinds of rates without having to teach in the richest school districts for decades. I'd also note that those are salaries (and similar for others in this discussion) are for 187-day school calendars, or 37.4 weeks/year. Generously applying the same rate to a 46 week/year "full time" calendar puts the top end in Round Rock at over $78,000. The median household income in Round Rock is around $70,000[1], suggesting that it isn't outrageous for a couple of married teachers there to earn well above average, even without summer income. Also, at least in MA, many teachers are not required to pay Social Security tax, but instead pay into a much more generous pension system. Other benefits are also competitive relative to the private sector. Again, though, I'm all for teachers making more money so more talented people are encouraged to teach. But the tenure system is not the way to get that result. [1] http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4863500.html http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4863500.html
  - cschneid 11y ago
    ugh, summer argument. First: teachers typically work days not on the student's school calendar, so it's more like 39 or so weeks by your calculation. Second: they work WAY more than an 8 hour day. Last night she did 7am - 4pm in the building, then 2 or so hours at night grading. (and that was a light day since she had gotten her planning done previously this weekend). Third: summer is where you can finally catch up and plan classes. Girlfriend did a major revamp of her AP US History class so she was in-line with the new standards. Last year was Western Civ revamp. Next year will be the standard US History class. You're right, benefits are in-line (not better, just in-line) with corporate america. Mediocre, but existing health care. A pension style retirement plan that's reasonable, but at the mercy of underfunding by politicians (which seems to be expected at this point).
zb 11y ago
How much do teachers in her school system who have 25 years experience make? In my state, which has comparable starting salaries, $56k assuming they obtained some professional certification along the way. Otherwise, $50k. (For comparison, an engineer straight out of college could expect to make maybe $75k.) I find the idea that we should destroy the entire school system to ensure that a small handful of undeserving people are not able to serve out their career on a still-very-modest salary quite mad.
- panzagl 11y ago
  Yeah, wait until these Javascript beasting brogrammers reach 35- all of a sudden experience will become much more valuable to them.
cschneid 11y ago
Given 20 years, and a doctorate degree $65k. Beyond 20, it goes to letters on the pay scale, and I'm not sure what the requirements are to move up that. No teachers in this district are making money suitable to their training and experience.

PretzelFisch 11y ago

If you put more money into the system, you could be pretty sure that the teachers would not see more than a dime of it. Tenure is what prevents schools from removing a higher cost experienced teacher and replacing them with a cheaper no experienced teachers.

twoodfin 11y ago
Microsoft and Google don't fire all their higher cost experienced engineers in favor of cheaper fresh graduates every year. They also don't forbid new engineers from making more than any longer-tenured ones. Why is tenure-based compensation an efficient use of dollars in primary education but not elsewhere?

kdamken 11y ago

This - I know teachers with 25 years experience making close to six figures, which seems fairly insane.

genghisjahn 11y ago
Why shouldn't a teacher with 25 years experience not make six figures, or close to it?
- Silfen 11y ago
  Because it's a function of tenure, and not job performance?
  - panzagl 11y ago
    So they never performed well? Very few jobs have pay that directly correlates to current performance.
hdctambien 11y ago
What school district? Teacher salary is public knowledge. There are very few states that pay teachers 6 digits.

panzagl 11y ago

If unions aren't strong in your state generally, then teacher's unions are no different. Too many people jump on teachers in New Jersey making $100K at the end of their career as an excuse to not even try to aim above the bottom of the barrel.

hdctambien 11y ago

In my school district[0] teachers start at $43,500 and max out at $63,688 (after 30 years and a PhD) You can pick up some extra stipends if you coach or work in certian departments (STEM) but good luck getting into 6 digits as a Teacher. When I taught in Massachusetts (where we have a teacher union)[1] pay starts at $36,400 and maxes out at $74,000 (with a PhD) after 19 years. Turns out that public school salary information is public information. So if you "know" a teacher that is making 6 digits, I challenge you to look up their pay scale and see if you really know what you think you know. [0] https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27mc-sxcu8ldW9OTHlLMjZ0SlU/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27mc-sxcu8ldW9OTHlLMjZ0SlU... [1] http://www.pittsfield.net/UserFiles/Servers/Server_1051846/File/Human%20Resources/Contracts/teacher%20k%20(12-15)%20(new%20teacher%20scale)%20(10-22-12)(1).pdf http://www.pittsfield.net/UserFiles/Servers/Server_1051846/F...

twoodfin 11y ago
For the record, I didn't make the "6 digit salaries" claim. I'd be thrilled if world-class (or even top 5-10%) teachers could command those kinds of rates without having to teach in the richest school districts for decades. I'd also note that those are salaries (and similar for others in this discussion) are for 187-day school calendars, or 37.4 weeks/year. Generously applying the same rate to a 46 week/year "full time" calendar puts the top end in Round Rock at over $78,000. The median household income in Round Rock is around $70,000[1], suggesting that it isn't outrageous for a couple of married teachers there to earn well above average, even without summer income. Also, at least in MA, many teachers are not required to pay Social Security tax, but instead pay into a much more generous pension system. Other benefits are also competitive relative to the private sector. Again, though, I'm all for teachers making more money so more talented people are encouraged to teach. But the tenure system is not the way to get that result. [1] http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4863500.html http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4863500.html
- cschneid 11y ago
  ugh, summer argument. First: teachers typically work days not on the student's school calendar, so it's more like 39 or so weeks by your calculation. Second: they work WAY more than an 8 hour day. Last night she did 7am - 4pm in the building, then 2 or so hours at night grading. (and that was a light day since she had gotten her planning done previously this weekend). Third: summer is where you can finally catch up and plan classes. Girlfriend did a major revamp of her AP US History class so she was in-line with the new standards. Last year was Western Civ revamp. Next year will be the standard US History class. You're right, benefits are in-line (not better, just in-line) with corporate america. Mediocre, but existing health care. A pension style retirement plan that's reasonable, but at the mercy of underfunding by politicians (which seems to be expected at this point).

zb 11y ago

How much do teachers in her school system who have 25 years experience make? In my state, which has comparable starting salaries, $56k assuming they obtained some professional certification along the way. Otherwise, $50k. (For comparison, an engineer straight out of college could expect to make maybe $75k.) I find the idea that we should destroy the entire school system to ensure that a small handful of undeserving people are not able to serve out their career on a still-very-modest salary quite mad.

panzagl 11y ago
Yeah, wait until these Javascript beasting brogrammers reach 35- all of a sudden experience will become much more valuable to them.

cschneid 11y ago

Given 20 years, and a doctorate degree $65k. Beyond 20, it goes to letters on the pay scale, and I'm not sure what the requirements are to move up that. No teachers in this district are making money suitable to their training and experience.