8 ms·

At the teacher level, they are underpaid. My girlfriend is a high school teacher w/ 4 years experience, a masters degree in her topic, and works 12+ hours a da

At the teacher level, they are underpaid. My girlfriend is a high school teacher w/ 4 years experience, a masters degree in her topic, and works 12+ hours a day (not kidding, seriously all day). She makes $35k / year. If she wasn't lucky enough to have an engineer paycheck behind her life, she simply wouldn't be able to do the job. It's likely that funding gets allocated in stupid ways, but the whole process is inherently expensive. Managing thousands of employees, dozens of buildings, updating equipment, training, etc, etc. It's a hard problem, and we've basically just decided that only "dedicated" workers should do it, which is code for "willing to be underpaid compared to qualifications".

twoodfin 11y ago
At the teacher level, they are underpaid. My girlfriend is a high school teacher w/ 4 years experience, a masters degree in her topic, and works 12+ hours a day (not kidding, seriously all day). She makes $35k / year. How much do teachers in her school system who have 25 years experience make? The union-mandated tenure system, which prevents young, talented teachers from making even vaguely competitive salaries, but rewards older, mediocre teachers with "time served" is part of what's stopping "more money" from being the answer. Higher teacher salaries under the current system would largely reward the oldest, not the best.
- PretzelFisch 11y ago
  If you put more money into the system, you could be pretty sure that the teachers would not see more than a dime of it. Tenure is what prevents schools from removing a higher cost experienced teacher and replacing them with a cheaper no experienced teachers.
  - twoodfin 11y ago
    Microsoft and Google don't fire all their higher cost experienced engineers in favor of cheaper fresh graduates every year. They also don't forbid new engineers from making more than any longer-tenured ones. Why is tenure-based compensation an efficient use of dollars in primary education but not elsewhere?
- kdamken 11y ago
  This - I know teachers with 25 years experience making close to six figures, which seems fairly insane.
  - genghisjahn 11y ago
    Why shouldn't a teacher with 25 years experience not make six figures, or close to it?
    - Silfen 11y ago
      Because it's a function of tenure, and not job performance?
      - panzagl 11y ago
        So they never performed well? Very few jobs have pay that directly correlates to current performance.
  - hdctambien 11y ago
    What school district? Teacher salary is public knowledge. There are very few states that pay teachers 6 digits.
- panzagl 11y ago
  If unions aren't strong in your state generally, then teacher's unions are no different. Too many people jump on teachers in New Jersey making $100K at the end of their career as an excuse to not even try to aim above the bottom of the barrel.
- hdctambien 11y ago
  In my school district[0] teachers start at $43,500 and max out at $63,688 (after 30 years and a PhD) You can pick up some extra stipends if you coach or work in certian departments (STEM) but good luck getting into 6 digits as a Teacher. When I taught in Massachusetts (where we have a teacher union)[1] pay starts at $36,400 and maxes out at $74,000 (with a PhD) after 19 years. Turns out that public school salary information is public information. So if you "know" a teacher that is making 6 digits, I challenge you to look up their pay scale and see if you really know what you think you know. [0] https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27mc-sxcu8ldW9OTHlLMjZ0SlU/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27mc-sxcu8ldW9OTHlLMjZ0SlU... [1] http://www.pittsfield.net/UserFiles/Servers/Server_1051846/File/Human%20Resources/Contracts/teacher%20k%20(12-15)%20(new%20teacher%20scale)%20(10-22-12)(1).pdf http://www.pittsfield.net/UserFiles/Servers/Server_1051846/F...
  - twoodfin 11y ago
    For the record, I didn't make the "6 digit salaries" claim. I'd be thrilled if world-class (or even top 5-10%) teachers could command those kinds of rates without having to teach in the richest school districts for decades. I'd also note that those are salaries (and similar for others in this discussion) are for 187-day school calendars, or 37.4 weeks/year. Generously applying the same rate to a 46 week/year "full time" calendar puts the top end in Round Rock at over $78,000. The median household income in Round Rock is around $70,000[1], suggesting that it isn't outrageous for a couple of married teachers there to earn well above average, even without summer income. Also, at least in MA, many teachers are not required to pay Social Security tax, but instead pay into a much more generous pension system. Other benefits are also competitive relative to the private sector. Again, though, I'm all for teachers making more money so more talented people are encouraged to teach. But the tenure system is not the way to get that result. [1] http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4863500.html http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4863500.html
    - cschneid 11y ago
      ugh, summer argument. First: teachers typically work days not on the student's school calendar, so it's more like 39 or so weeks by your calculation. Second: they work WAY more than an 8 hour day. Last night she did 7am - 4pm in the building, then 2 or so hours at night grading. (and that was a light day since she had gotten her planning done previously this weekend). Third: summer is where you can finally catch up and plan classes. Girlfriend did a major revamp of her AP US History class so she was in-line with the new standards. Last year was Western Civ revamp. Next year will be the standard US History class. You're right, benefits are in-line (not better, just in-line) with corporate america. Mediocre, but existing health care. A pension style retirement plan that's reasonable, but at the mercy of underfunding by politicians (which seems to be expected at this point).
- zb 11y ago
  How much do teachers in her school system who have 25 years experience make? In my state, which has comparable starting salaries, $56k assuming they obtained some professional certification along the way. Otherwise, $50k. (For comparison, an engineer straight out of college could expect to make maybe $75k.) I find the idea that we should destroy the entire school system to ensure that a small handful of undeserving people are not able to serve out their career on a still-very-modest salary quite mad.
  - panzagl 11y ago
    Yeah, wait until these Javascript beasting brogrammers reach 35- all of a sudden experience will become much more valuable to them.
- cschneid 11y ago
  Given 20 years, and a doctorate degree $65k. Beyond 20, it goes to letters on the pay scale, and I'm not sure what the requirements are to move up that. No teachers in this district are making money suitable to their training and experience.
aianus 11y ago
> It's likely that funding gets allocated in stupid ways That's exactly what it is. When I was in high school we got a shipping pallet of new $100+ calculus textbooks that sat unused because they were the same as the old calculus textbooks but with material cut out because the curriculum had been dumbed down. Thank god our teacher saw them as the worthless turds that they were and continued teaching us prohibited advanced material like gasp integration from the old books. Meanwhile our CS teacher was actually a history teacher who stayed a chapter or two ahead of us in the book because who in their right minds would become a teacher making $50k if they actually knew how to write software?
greedo 11y ago
Well, here's anectdata to contradict yours. A new teacher in my fine town starts out at $43K/year plus benefits. 9 month work schedule. Here in the Midwest of the USA, $43K to start with nothing but a degree and teaching credential is a perfectly good salary, above the median for the city and state.
rebootthesystem 11y ago
If your girlfriend feels she is a better teacher and deserves more she needs to help start a movement to de-unionize schools. We should not have incompetent dinosaurs teaching our kids. We want brilliant, dedicated, hard working, up-to-date teachers who are worth every penny they earn in front of our classrooms. And, yes, they should make $150K per year or more. And, no, it's not free money. They have to be that good. Everyone else needs to be fired. Imagine building a company where you cannot get rid of incompetent, mediocre and down-right caustic employees because some third party (a union) gets in the way. This company will never amount to anything and will never be able to compete with one where excellence is the goal and people are well paid because they are worth it. For some reason we seem to be OK with the idea of supporting the unions and lose sight that our goal should be to ensure the kids come out of school with absolute genius level knowledge, experiences and enthusiasm across a range of topics from arts to engineering. Kids ought to leave school with a hunger to succeed and contribute to society resembling a massive buffalo stampede with a purpose. Today a huge swath of them leave school with a "thump" and no passion, direction or real knowledge to guide them forward. The system is broken.
- cschneid 11y ago
  :-/ Yeah, deunionizing would be great.... Private school teachers get paid much less than public [1], with the bonus of being fired any time. Instead, when school districts attempt to bust the teachers union, they do it in order to funnel money to charter schools, often religious [2]. These charter schools have selective admissions, and often won't keep children with any sort of difficulty [3], which artificially raises their test rates, and hoses kids who need the help. [1]: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-are-private-school-teachers-paid-less-than-public-school-teachers/280829/ http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-are... [2]: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28401042/colorado-supreme-court-rejects-douglas-county-voucher-program http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28401042/colorado-supreme-... [3]: http://dianeravitch.net/2014/02/26/breaking-news-new-data-show-high-expulsion-rates-from-charter-schools-in-chicago/ http://dianeravitch.net/2014/02/26/breaking-news-new-data-sh...
  - rebootthesystem 11y ago
greggman 11y ago
Maybe you have more info but... Somehow, if I understand correctly. The USA spends more per student than any other country. Yet, somehow, other countries have better outcomes. Is my info bad or does that suggest that more money isn't the problem. Is the problem how the current money is being spent or is it that we need more money. Are those articles making stuff up? https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66 http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/48631286.pdf http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/48631286.pdf As for salary I also think it's a crime that teachers get paid so low. At the same time low is probably relative. A teacher in Berlin making $40k a year is doing a lot better than a teach in NYC/LA/SF making $40k a year. I've tried to talk myself into becoming a teacher but salary is a big reason I can't quite get myself to take the leap.
- Glyptodon 11y ago
  I've actually thought about becoming a teacher because developer salaries are so uncompetitive in my area.

twoodfin 11y ago

At the teacher level, they are underpaid. My girlfriend is a high school teacher w/ 4 years experience, a masters degree in her topic, and works 12+ hours a day (not kidding, seriously all day). She makes $35k / year. How much do teachers in her school system who have 25 years experience make? The union-mandated tenure system, which prevents young, talented teachers from making even vaguely competitive salaries, but rewards older, mediocre teachers with "time served" is part of what's stopping "more money" from being the answer. Higher teacher salaries under the current system would largely reward the oldest, not the best.

PretzelFisch 11y ago
If you put more money into the system, you could be pretty sure that the teachers would not see more than a dime of it. Tenure is what prevents schools from removing a higher cost experienced teacher and replacing them with a cheaper no experienced teachers.
- twoodfin 11y ago
  Microsoft and Google don't fire all their higher cost experienced engineers in favor of cheaper fresh graduates every year. They also don't forbid new engineers from making more than any longer-tenured ones. Why is tenure-based compensation an efficient use of dollars in primary education but not elsewhere?
kdamken 11y ago
This - I know teachers with 25 years experience making close to six figures, which seems fairly insane.
- genghisjahn 11y ago
  Why shouldn't a teacher with 25 years experience not make six figures, or close to it?
  - Silfen 11y ago
    Because it's a function of tenure, and not job performance?
    - panzagl 11y ago
      So they never performed well? Very few jobs have pay that directly correlates to current performance.
- hdctambien 11y ago
  What school district? Teacher salary is public knowledge. There are very few states that pay teachers 6 digits.
panzagl 11y ago
If unions aren't strong in your state generally, then teacher's unions are no different. Too many people jump on teachers in New Jersey making $100K at the end of their career as an excuse to not even try to aim above the bottom of the barrel.
hdctambien 11y ago
In my school district[0] teachers start at $43,500 and max out at $63,688 (after 30 years and a PhD) You can pick up some extra stipends if you coach or work in certian departments (STEM) but good luck getting into 6 digits as a Teacher. When I taught in Massachusetts (where we have a teacher union)[1] pay starts at $36,400 and maxes out at $74,000 (with a PhD) after 19 years. Turns out that public school salary information is public information. So if you "know" a teacher that is making 6 digits, I challenge you to look up their pay scale and see if you really know what you think you know. [0] https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27mc-sxcu8ldW9OTHlLMjZ0SlU/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27mc-sxcu8ldW9OTHlLMjZ0SlU... [1] http://www.pittsfield.net/UserFiles/Servers/Server_1051846/File/Human%20Resources/Contracts/teacher%20k%20(12-15)%20(new%20teacher%20scale)%20(10-22-12)(1).pdf http://www.pittsfield.net/UserFiles/Servers/Server_1051846/F...
- twoodfin 11y ago
  For the record, I didn't make the "6 digit salaries" claim. I'd be thrilled if world-class (or even top 5-10%) teachers could command those kinds of rates without having to teach in the richest school districts for decades. I'd also note that those are salaries (and similar for others in this discussion) are for 187-day school calendars, or 37.4 weeks/year. Generously applying the same rate to a 46 week/year "full time" calendar puts the top end in Round Rock at over $78,000. The median household income in Round Rock is around $70,000[1], suggesting that it isn't outrageous for a couple of married teachers there to earn well above average, even without summer income. Also, at least in MA, many teachers are not required to pay Social Security tax, but instead pay into a much more generous pension system. Other benefits are also competitive relative to the private sector. Again, though, I'm all for teachers making more money so more talented people are encouraged to teach. But the tenure system is not the way to get that result. [1] http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4863500.html http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4863500.html
  - cschneid 11y ago
    ugh, summer argument. First: teachers typically work days not on the student's school calendar, so it's more like 39 or so weeks by your calculation. Second: they work WAY more than an 8 hour day. Last night she did 7am - 4pm in the building, then 2 or so hours at night grading. (and that was a light day since she had gotten her planning done previously this weekend). Third: summer is where you can finally catch up and plan classes. Girlfriend did a major revamp of her AP US History class so she was in-line with the new standards. Last year was Western Civ revamp. Next year will be the standard US History class. You're right, benefits are in-line (not better, just in-line) with corporate america. Mediocre, but existing health care. A pension style retirement plan that's reasonable, but at the mercy of underfunding by politicians (which seems to be expected at this point).
zb 11y ago
How much do teachers in her school system who have 25 years experience make? In my state, which has comparable starting salaries, $56k assuming they obtained some professional certification along the way. Otherwise, $50k. (For comparison, an engineer straight out of college could expect to make maybe $75k.) I find the idea that we should destroy the entire school system to ensure that a small handful of undeserving people are not able to serve out their career on a still-very-modest salary quite mad.
- panzagl 11y ago
  Yeah, wait until these Javascript beasting brogrammers reach 35- all of a sudden experience will become much more valuable to them.
cschneid 11y ago
Given 20 years, and a doctorate degree $65k. Beyond 20, it goes to letters on the pay scale, and I'm not sure what the requirements are to move up that. No teachers in this district are making money suitable to their training and experience.

aianus 11y ago

> It's likely that funding gets allocated in stupid ways That's exactly what it is. When I was in high school we got a shipping pallet of new $100+ calculus textbooks that sat unused because they were the same as the old calculus textbooks but with material cut out because the curriculum had been dumbed down. Thank god our teacher saw them as the worthless turds that they were and continued teaching us prohibited advanced material like gasp integration from the old books. Meanwhile our CS teacher was actually a history teacher who stayed a chapter or two ahead of us in the book because who in their right minds would become a teacher making $50k if they actually knew how to write software?

greedo 11y ago

Well, here's anectdata to contradict yours. A new teacher in my fine town starts out at $43K/year plus benefits. 9 month work schedule. Here in the Midwest of the USA, $43K to start with nothing but a degree and teaching credential is a perfectly good salary, above the median for the city and state.

rebootthesystem 11y ago

If your girlfriend feels she is a better teacher and deserves more she needs to help start a movement to de-unionize schools. We should not have incompetent dinosaurs teaching our kids. We want brilliant, dedicated, hard working, up-to-date teachers who are worth every penny they earn in front of our classrooms. And, yes, they should make $150K per year or more. And, no, it's not free money. They have to be that good. Everyone else needs to be fired. Imagine building a company where you cannot get rid of incompetent, mediocre and down-right caustic employees because some third party (a union) gets in the way. This company will never amount to anything and will never be able to compete with one where excellence is the goal and people are well paid because they are worth it. For some reason we seem to be OK with the idea of supporting the unions and lose sight that our goal should be to ensure the kids come out of school with absolute genius level knowledge, experiences and enthusiasm across a range of topics from arts to engineering. Kids ought to leave school with a hunger to succeed and contribute to society resembling a massive buffalo stampede with a purpose. Today a huge swath of them leave school with a "thump" and no passion, direction or real knowledge to guide them forward. The system is broken.

cschneid 11y ago
:-/ Yeah, deunionizing would be great.... Private school teachers get paid much less than public [1], with the bonus of being fired any time. Instead, when school districts attempt to bust the teachers union, they do it in order to funnel money to charter schools, often religious [2]. These charter schools have selective admissions, and often won't keep children with any sort of difficulty [3], which artificially raises their test rates, and hoses kids who need the help. [1]: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-are-private-school-teachers-paid-less-than-public-school-teachers/280829/ http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-are... [2]: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28401042/colorado-supreme-court-rejects-douglas-county-voucher-program http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28401042/colorado-supreme-... [3]: http://dianeravitch.net/2014/02/26/breaking-news-new-data-show-high-expulsion-rates-from-charter-schools-in-chicago/ http://dianeravitch.net/2014/02/26/breaking-news-new-data-sh...
- rebootthesystem 11y ago

greggman 11y ago

Maybe you have more info but... Somehow, if I understand correctly. The USA spends more per student than any other country. Yet, somehow, other countries have better outcomes. Is my info bad or does that suggest that more money isn't the problem. Is the problem how the current money is being spent or is it that we need more money. Are those articles making stuff up? https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66 http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/48631286.pdf http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/48631286.pdf As for salary I also think it's a crime that teachers get paid so low. At the same time low is probably relative. A teacher in Berlin making $40k a year is doing a lot better than a teach in NYC/LA/SF making $40k a year. I've tried to talk myself into becoming a teacher but salary is a big reason I can't quite get myself to take the leap.

Glyptodon 11y ago
I've actually thought about becoming a teacher because developer salaries are so uncompetitive in my area.