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I find it striking that you almost never hear about such behavior occurring in Europe (correct me if I'm wrong). Any ideas why things seem to be very different

by benevol 11y ago

I find it striking that you almost never hear about such behavior occurring in Europe (correct me if I'm wrong). Any ideas why things seem to be very different there?

tremon 11y ago
Because adults in education over here are still capable of independent thought, probably.
raarts 11y ago
After living in the US as a European for 1.5 years, I've come to the conclusion that americans tend to be more afraid in general. For example I've never heard in Europe of recommendations like 'when selling stuff through craigslist always meet at a starbucks but never at home' either. Also being smart and/or nerdy actually is valued in Europe. It may also be a Southern thing though.
- jevinskie 11y ago
  At least for your craigslist example, the fear is not unfounded. [0] That one example happened just last month in my town. The weapon in that case need not be a gun, a knife or baseball bat wielding friend hiding in the bushes would work well too. Perhaps better than Starbucks would be the police department parking lot. That is actually a preferred place for private gun sales - if the buyer is uneasy about conducting the sale at a police station, they are probably a person prohibited from owning a firearm. Our town has added a designated "craigslist zone" at a local fire department precisely to help deter robberies. [1] So, in the craigslist example, many American people are afraid because there is overwhelming evidence that craigslist robberies A) really do happen with some significant frequency and B) meeting at a public place is a simple, low-effort way of mitigating that risk. I can understand people living in lower crime areas not worrying about craigslist robberies (though I would take the precautions anywhere because it is so simple). However, in general, I would agree with you that Americans eat up FUD. You can see it in our DHS/TSA, the Patriot Act, collective disinterest in the Snowden leaks, and general anti-Muslim sentiments. [0]: http://wlfi.com/2015/08/18/man-robbed-at-gunpoint-while-meeting-buyers-from-craigslist/ http://wlfi.com/2015/08/18/man-robbed-at-gunpoint-while-meet... [1]: http://wlfi.com/2015/08/18/lafayette-adds-monitored-exchange-zone/ http://wlfi.com/2015/08/18/lafayette-adds-monitored-exchange...
  - pixl97 11y ago
    >So, in the craigslist example, many American people are afraid because there is overwhelming evidence that Is there evidence, or media reporting well beyond the actual rate of occurrence?
  - Tepix 11y ago
    The funny thing is that people buy guns because they are afraid, yet that makes the whole situation more dangerous. The reason why you don't have to be afraid when dealing with Craigslist in europe is that guns are rare, as is gun violence. But I'm sure some will just buy another gun to feel safer. Isn't that the standard argument after a serial shooting? The first victim should have had a gun, then this wouldn't have happened... that's as perverse as it gets!
  - raarts 11y ago
    The fear is not unfounded of course, but I think there are two mechanisms at work here: 1. in the US the media blows these things up much more than in Europe. In fact there is a lot more attention for crime in general, while traffic accidents get much less attention. 2. Similar robberies do take place in Europe, but I think Europeans tend to shrug them off more, assuming there's only a very small chance it will happen to them. Also, for some reason, whenever something bad happens, the US seems to respond with bigger countermeasures, more stringent laws and heftier punishments. Europeans are amazed when they read that children are sometimes threatened with tens of years of jailtime for relatively small incidents.
nailer 11y ago
There was an athlete doing hill runs with a weight vest in the UK: the neighbours called the anti-terrorism squad. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-15190563 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-15190563
rm445 11y ago
I suspect there are similar incidents with much less overblown outcomes. There's no relative scarcity of ignorant and authoritarian schoolteachers, but consequences are likely to be confined to school, not involve law enforcement, and parents and pupils are more likely to knuckle down rather than fight or go to the press. So, taking "such behaviour" much more broadly than this specific incident (and of course granting that Europe is a big and diverse place) - if a kid is found hacking school networks, or distributing a satirical magazine, or bringing possibly inappropriate or dangerous items to school, the schools are just as likely to crack down (even if it infringes the pupil's legal rights) but the matter is likely to end there without ruining the pupil's education. Or making the school administration change its behaviour. Personally I think the situation as I have described it is favourable. Ideally schools wouldn't be administered by petty tyrants, but as long as everyone finishes their education with a blank slate it's fine. Keeping the police away from schools as much as possible would be a good start.
- raarts 11y ago
  The sun of a (Dutch) friend actually 'hacked' his school network (he gleaned the password from his teacher). Grades were altered, he involved others, and they were caught. The police was not involved, and he was expelled. He is now attending another school. He was punished, but it did not ruin his future.
matt4077 11y ago
The trend towards a "security theatre" and all that does indeed seem to be much stronger. Even where security measures in Europe were increased (i. e. ban on liquids), it was more on the behest of the Americans than intrinsically motivated. I see a few possible causes: – 9/11 was a much bigger attack than anything that happened on European soil – there is a more influential lobby for militarisation/criminalisation in the US – Americans are more fearful – America is more democratic. As such, the unfounded fears of parts of the population (on both sides of the Atlantic) are less likely to be buffered by the more rational thinking of experts and, my favourite: – Americans love excitement and violence & it is amplified by the media. Nothing better than a bomb scare on FOX.

by benevol 11y ago

I find it striking that you almost never hear about such behavior occurring in Europe (correct me if I'm wrong). Any ideas why things seem to be very different there?

tremon 11y ago

Because adults in education over here are still capable of independent thought, probably.

raarts 11y ago

After living in the US as a European for 1.5 years, I've come to the conclusion that americans tend to be more afraid in general. For example I've never heard in Europe of recommendations like 'when selling stuff through craigslist always meet at a starbucks but never at home' either. Also being smart and/or nerdy actually is valued in Europe. It may also be a Southern thing though.

jevinskie 11y ago
At least for your craigslist example, the fear is not unfounded. [0] That one example happened just last month in my town. The weapon in that case need not be a gun, a knife or baseball bat wielding friend hiding in the bushes would work well too. Perhaps better than Starbucks would be the police department parking lot. That is actually a preferred place for private gun sales - if the buyer is uneasy about conducting the sale at a police station, they are probably a person prohibited from owning a firearm. Our town has added a designated "craigslist zone" at a local fire department precisely to help deter robberies. [1] So, in the craigslist example, many American people are afraid because there is overwhelming evidence that craigslist robberies A) really do happen with some significant frequency and B) meeting at a public place is a simple, low-effort way of mitigating that risk. I can understand people living in lower crime areas not worrying about craigslist robberies (though I would take the precautions anywhere because it is so simple). However, in general, I would agree with you that Americans eat up FUD. You can see it in our DHS/TSA, the Patriot Act, collective disinterest in the Snowden leaks, and general anti-Muslim sentiments. [0]: http://wlfi.com/2015/08/18/man-robbed-at-gunpoint-while-meeting-buyers-from-craigslist/ http://wlfi.com/2015/08/18/man-robbed-at-gunpoint-while-meet... [1]: http://wlfi.com/2015/08/18/lafayette-adds-monitored-exchange-zone/ http://wlfi.com/2015/08/18/lafayette-adds-monitored-exchange...
- pixl97 11y ago
  >So, in the craigslist example, many American people are afraid because there is overwhelming evidence that Is there evidence, or media reporting well beyond the actual rate of occurrence?
- Tepix 11y ago
  The funny thing is that people buy guns because they are afraid, yet that makes the whole situation more dangerous. The reason why you don't have to be afraid when dealing with Craigslist in europe is that guns are rare, as is gun violence. But I'm sure some will just buy another gun to feel safer. Isn't that the standard argument after a serial shooting? The first victim should have had a gun, then this wouldn't have happened... that's as perverse as it gets!
- raarts 11y ago
  The fear is not unfounded of course, but I think there are two mechanisms at work here: 1. in the US the media blows these things up much more than in Europe. In fact there is a lot more attention for crime in general, while traffic accidents get much less attention. 2. Similar robberies do take place in Europe, but I think Europeans tend to shrug them off more, assuming there's only a very small chance it will happen to them. Also, for some reason, whenever something bad happens, the US seems to respond with bigger countermeasures, more stringent laws and heftier punishments. Europeans are amazed when they read that children are sometimes threatened with tens of years of jailtime for relatively small incidents.

nailer 11y ago

There was an athlete doing hill runs with a weight vest in the UK: the neighbours called the anti-terrorism squad. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-15190563 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-15190563

rm445 11y ago

I suspect there are similar incidents with much less overblown outcomes. There's no relative scarcity of ignorant and authoritarian schoolteachers, but consequences are likely to be confined to school, not involve law enforcement, and parents and pupils are more likely to knuckle down rather than fight or go to the press. So, taking "such behaviour" much more broadly than this specific incident (and of course granting that Europe is a big and diverse place) - if a kid is found hacking school networks, or distributing a satirical magazine, or bringing possibly inappropriate or dangerous items to school, the schools are just as likely to crack down (even if it infringes the pupil's legal rights) but the matter is likely to end there without ruining the pupil's education. Or making the school administration change its behaviour. Personally I think the situation as I have described it is favourable. Ideally schools wouldn't be administered by petty tyrants, but as long as everyone finishes their education with a blank slate it's fine. Keeping the police away from schools as much as possible would be a good start.

raarts 11y ago
The sun of a (Dutch) friend actually 'hacked' his school network (he gleaned the password from his teacher). Grades were altered, he involved others, and they were caught. The police was not involved, and he was expelled. He is now attending another school. He was punished, but it did not ruin his future.

matt4077 11y ago

The trend towards a "security theatre" and all that does indeed seem to be much stronger. Even where security measures in Europe were increased (i. e. ban on liquids), it was more on the behest of the Americans than intrinsically motivated. I see a few possible causes: – 9/11 was a much bigger attack than anything that happened on European soil – there is a more influential lobby for militarisation/criminalisation in the US – Americans are more fearful – America is more democratic. As such, the unfounded fears of parts of the population (on both sides of the Atlantic) are less likely to be buffered by the more rational thinking of experts and, my favourite: – Americans love excitement and violence & it is amplified by the media. Nothing better than a bomb scare on FOX.