> but programs in them aren't really "first-class citizens" of the platform But now you are moving the goalposts. It is irrelevant whether programs are "first

> but programs in them aren't really "first-class citizens" of the platform But now you are moving the goalposts. It is irrelevant whether programs are "first-class citizens." It doesn't stop one from enjoying and experiencing programming, and it certainly doesn't prevent someone from making just as complex and interesting programs regardless of the environment in which they are executed. The point I am arguing from your original post is the following: > Unfortunately I don't know if it ever will reach the same level of importance as literacy, because the industry seems to be trying very hard to discourage regular users from ever becoming programmers or even "advanced users"; see the War on General Purpose Computing: I very much disagree that anyone is trying to discourage regular users from becoming programmers. Whether you are in a sandboxed or locked down environment is an irrelevant implementation detail. Virtual machines can be explored on such systems, even if the real ones can't. (And, as an aside, Codea for iPad can export a user's project into a native app that can be developed further or uploaded to the App Store. So even environments like the iPad can, and have, produced "first-class citizen" applications. In fact, we published the first game coded entirely on iPad in 2010. It has had millions of downloads.)