9 ms·

I agree. I'm just getting into it and building out a home stereo system, but I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I enjoy playing vinyl. It's because of junk li

by coldpie 11y ago

I agree. I'm just getting into it and building out a home stereo system, but I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I enjoy playing vinyl. It's because of junk like, "The reasons cited [for playing vinyl] are usually a fuller, warmer sound from vinyl’s analog grooves." No, no, no, don't associate me with that stupid audiophile nonsense.

coldtea 11y ago
Well, it IS a different sound, and that can be measured objectively (I mean that vinyl players "color" the original recording and how much and in what ways they alter the frequency response and such). So, it's not like $1000 cables scams etc, where the results are identical. Now, the subjective part is whether this "warmer" sound is better than the more accurate (better fidelity) high quality digital sound. For a lot of people, it is -- same way as we tend to like "saturated" images more, despite their colors not being true to the original. (Of course I'm speaking in general -- if you, mr. outlier, doesn't like saturated pictures, this doesn't apply to your statistical noise self. Not everything is about you.). Then there's the crackle and static that some (fewer) people also like, but I'm sticking to the basic vinyl "color" here.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  Vinyl is very heavily processed. The sound that ends up on the groove has the bass cut by up to 20dB, and the treble boosted by the same amount, because the needle can't move fast enough and far enough to reproduce a flat frequency response. (Google "RIAA curve" for details.) The processing is reversed on playback in the preamp, but there's always a mismatch between the source EQ and the preamp EQ, so there's always some tonal distortion. And because the bass gets boosted so much there's added waveform distortion which increases with bass frequencies and makes the bass thicker. Many turntables also have pitch instabilities. Hence "vinyl sound." So no - it's not even remotely accurate. Add scratches, crackles, and pops, groove deterioration - the needle causes enough friction to melt the plastic in the groove - and other artefacts, and it's really more of a lifestyle/collector thing than anything to do with accuracy. Personally I have enough physical stuff already, and I want less, not more. So being able to store all my music on a hard drive in FLAC format makes me thankful the industry moved beyond vinyl.
  - vasilipupkin 11y ago
    But if you wanted that type of sound, you could record it digitally. There is no reason why that type of sound has to come from a vinyl analog record. Is there ?
    - coldtea 11y ago
      And people DO do that: using several compression, old mikes, tube amps, EQing, recording techniques, etc to make digital releases sound like vinyl/low-fi of yore. In fact one of the hottest selling audio plugin categories are "tape saturation" (which mimic 2-inch tape distortions, not that far from mimicking vinul). E.g.: https://www.u-he.com/cms/satin https://www.u-he.com/cms/satin When it comes to vinyl, there's also other factors: the patina (crackle) etc, adds connection to the times you've played the record, the fragility and tactile feel, plus it's a physical, collectible artifact. Plus, at least for now, the fashion factor. While a audio-file collection will be useless in 20 years (already is with things like Spotify giving access to most music), a good condition LP will mostly increase in price. In 50 years? A current pressing could be worth $200 or more (especially since most bands do small 1000 units or less vinul pressings).
      - vasilipupkin 11y ago
        I get that it's fashion. It just surprises me, given there is no reason for it, as far as the actual quality of the signal goes. I mean it's one thing if you are collecting antique vinyl from the 1930s or something. But collecting modern recordings just seems bizarre to me. I am not judging, I am just amused. Also, Spotify doesn't give you the same quality sound as an audiofile collection of CDs, due to compression
        coldtea 11y ago
        >I get that it's fashion. It just surprises me, given there is no reason for it, as far as the actual quality of the signal goes. I think one way to see it is that it being in vinyl (with all the romantic, old-music-industry, analog etc ideas it conveys) is also part of the signal. As in, the signal is not the pure musical signal, but also the cultural one (the vinyl being emotional, nostalgic, romanticized, fashionished, fetishised, etc). >Also, Spotify doesn't give you the same quality sound as an audiofile collection of CDs, due to compression That's just a matter of time and better broadband connections. For most people, given their speakers/headphones quality, it's more than enough.
thomnottom 11y ago
So you're taking the time to build out a more cumbersome audio system but don't want anyone to think you are putting forth the effort because you might enjoy how it sounds better?
- coldpie 11y ago
  It's the glorification of vinyl as a superior format for audio storage and reproduction that I take issue with. It is mathematically inferior to modern audio recording techniques. If you're concerned about quality and want a "warmer" sound, that should be achieved by some equalizer or other post-processing stage after retrieving the audio from a high quality storage format. It shouldn't be achieved by ignoring the last 50 years of audio recording improvements. Vinyl is fun for lots of reasons, but it is not a superior format for storing audio, just like $10,000 HDMI cables and magic audiophile crystals are not improvements.
  - cthalupa 11y ago
    I agree as far as the physical format goes, but the loudness war is somewhat less entrenched in vinyl. Nearly all CDs and digital download versions of songs are released with mastering that has heavily compressed the audio to make it louder and heavily reduced the dynamic range - this isn't a digital format issue, this is actually lost information about the audio of the song because the volume has been uniformly boosted to the point there is not much difference in dynamics A lot of the smaller labels, and some of the larger ones, will do a vinyl specific master that hasn't gone through this compression process and has the full dynamics of the original recording. Even with the coloration, I find these almost always sound better than the lower dynamic range versions. So, basically, despite vinyl being an inferior format, humans have managed to fuck things up enough that it can sound better in spite of being a bad physical medium for audio.
  - meo2 11y ago
    I've lost countless audio recordings due to hard drive malfunctions, bad data storage practices - misplacing them and overwriting the hd, importing cds and forgetting to name the resulting audio files then later accidentally deleting them and all sorts of stuff that you can definitely call user error, but user error with a record needs to involve power tools to be serious. For the most part all my old records are still around and playable. In that sense, it's proven itself a superior format for storing audio in my life.

by coldpie 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago

Well, it IS a different sound, and that can be measured objectively (I mean that vinyl players "color" the original recording and how much and in what ways they alter the frequency response and such). So, it's not like $1000 cables scams etc, where the results are identical. Now, the subjective part is whether this "warmer" sound is better than the more accurate (better fidelity) high quality digital sound. For a lot of people, it is -- same way as we tend to like "saturated" images more, despite their colors not being true to the original. (Of course I'm speaking in general -- if you, mr. outlier, doesn't like saturated pictures, this doesn't apply to your statistical noise self. Not everything is about you.). Then there's the crackle and static that some (fewer) people also like, but I'm sticking to the basic vinyl "color" here.

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
Vinyl is very heavily processed. The sound that ends up on the groove has the bass cut by up to 20dB, and the treble boosted by the same amount, because the needle can't move fast enough and far enough to reproduce a flat frequency response. (Google "RIAA curve" for details.) The processing is reversed on playback in the preamp, but there's always a mismatch between the source EQ and the preamp EQ, so there's always some tonal distortion. And because the bass gets boosted so much there's added waveform distortion which increases with bass frequencies and makes the bass thicker. Many turntables also have pitch instabilities. Hence "vinyl sound." So no - it's not even remotely accurate. Add scratches, crackles, and pops, groove deterioration - the needle causes enough friction to melt the plastic in the groove - and other artefacts, and it's really more of a lifestyle/collector thing than anything to do with accuracy. Personally I have enough physical stuff already, and I want less, not more. So being able to store all my music on a hard drive in FLAC format makes me thankful the industry moved beyond vinyl.
- vasilipupkin 11y ago
  But if you wanted that type of sound, you could record it digitally. There is no reason why that type of sound has to come from a vinyl analog record. Is there ?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    And people DO do that: using several compression, old mikes, tube amps, EQing, recording techniques, etc to make digital releases sound like vinyl/low-fi of yore. In fact one of the hottest selling audio plugin categories are "tape saturation" (which mimic 2-inch tape distortions, not that far from mimicking vinul). E.g.: https://www.u-he.com/cms/satin https://www.u-he.com/cms/satin When it comes to vinyl, there's also other factors: the patina (crackle) etc, adds connection to the times you've played the record, the fragility and tactile feel, plus it's a physical, collectible artifact. Plus, at least for now, the fashion factor. While a audio-file collection will be useless in 20 years (already is with things like Spotify giving access to most music), a good condition LP will mostly increase in price. In 50 years? A current pressing could be worth $200 or more (especially since most bands do small 1000 units or less vinul pressings).
    - vasilipupkin 11y ago
      I get that it's fashion. It just surprises me, given there is no reason for it, as far as the actual quality of the signal goes. I mean it's one thing if you are collecting antique vinyl from the 1930s or something. But collecting modern recordings just seems bizarre to me. I am not judging, I am just amused. Also, Spotify doesn't give you the same quality sound as an audiofile collection of CDs, due to compression
      - coldtea 11y ago
        >I get that it's fashion. It just surprises me, given there is no reason for it, as far as the actual quality of the signal goes. I think one way to see it is that it being in vinyl (with all the romantic, old-music-industry, analog etc ideas it conveys) is also part of the signal. As in, the signal is not the pure musical signal, but also the cultural one (the vinyl being emotional, nostalgic, romanticized, fashionished, fetishised, etc). >Also, Spotify doesn't give you the same quality sound as an audiofile collection of CDs, due to compression That's just a matter of time and better broadband connections. For most people, given their speakers/headphones quality, it's more than enough.

thomnottom 11y ago

So you're taking the time to build out a more cumbersome audio system but don't want anyone to think you are putting forth the effort because you might enjoy how it sounds better?

coldpie 11y ago
It's the glorification of vinyl as a superior format for audio storage and reproduction that I take issue with. It is mathematically inferior to modern audio recording techniques. If you're concerned about quality and want a "warmer" sound, that should be achieved by some equalizer or other post-processing stage after retrieving the audio from a high quality storage format. It shouldn't be achieved by ignoring the last 50 years of audio recording improvements. Vinyl is fun for lots of reasons, but it is not a superior format for storing audio, just like $10,000 HDMI cables and magic audiophile crystals are not improvements.
- cthalupa 11y ago
  I agree as far as the physical format goes, but the loudness war is somewhat less entrenched in vinyl. Nearly all CDs and digital download versions of songs are released with mastering that has heavily compressed the audio to make it louder and heavily reduced the dynamic range - this isn't a digital format issue, this is actually lost information about the audio of the song because the volume has been uniformly boosted to the point there is not much difference in dynamics A lot of the smaller labels, and some of the larger ones, will do a vinyl specific master that hasn't gone through this compression process and has the full dynamics of the original recording. Even with the coloration, I find these almost always sound better than the lower dynamic range versions. So, basically, despite vinyl being an inferior format, humans have managed to fuck things up enough that it can sound better in spite of being a bad physical medium for audio.
- meo2 11y ago
  I've lost countless audio recordings due to hard drive malfunctions, bad data storage practices - misplacing them and overwriting the hd, importing cds and forgetting to name the resulting audio files then later accidentally deleting them and all sorts of stuff that you can definitely call user error, but user error with a record needs to involve power tools to be serious. For the most part all my old records are still around and playable. In that sense, it's proven itself a superior format for storing audio in my life.