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Maybe France really changed a lot. But be not mistaken: It is still the most bureaucratic country on earth. Anecdote: I'm doing a PhD in France. Each year, one

by onli 11y ago

Maybe France really changed a lot. But be not mistaken: It is still the most bureaucratic country on earth. Anecdote: I'm doing a PhD in France. Each year, one has to do a re-inscription. In Germany, that means sending money to the university. In France, that means sending in – let me count, I have them on my desk – 17 documents, and to pay as well of course (preferred way: with a check. Like it is 50 years ago). The documents ask for tons of information they have already, like where I'm born. Included are things like "this document and do two copies" - it is still all analog. Absolutely disrespectful of my time. And this is not a single occurrence, I got told that at school they are asking for documents for the kids as well each year, the same thing with information they already have. On the other hand, doing the taxes was not at all complicated and I got proper help. This probably changed in the last years. It might be that this is a sign of a changing system, but there is still a lot of crust.

seren 11y ago
There is a big incentive for any state to have a well run tax administration. It is the profit center for the state.
yaps8 11y ago
To be fair cheques are still popular in France and regularly used by administration, landlords and individuals.
- negrit 11y ago
  To be fair cheques are also popular in the US. Until recently I had to pay my rent with Cheque. I live in an apartment complex in San Francisco.
  - rorykoehler 11y ago
    My German bank doesn't even offer cheque books anymore.
    - thachmai 11y ago
      Cash is King is Germany. It's rather awkward if you come from a country with heavy card use. It's just weird to carry a few hundred euros in cash in your pocket these days.
      - onli 11y ago
        You need cash in Germany, but not a lot of it – everything big takes a debit card. That does not help strangers with their credit cards though, so they get the wrong impression.
        germanier 11y ago
        I pay cash at the bakery, to get a coffee, to load my canteen card at work, and to buy bus tickets in small cities at the driver, that's it. Buying used cars is usually done by cash (even 10k and more). Almost everywhere else you can pay with a German debit card (Girocard). But credit Cards are coming fast to Germany. Since a few weeks even the cheapest supermarkets, including Aldi, started to accept MasterCard and Visa.
        onli 11y ago
        Thanks for correcting, not being there too often currently things like credit cards arriving there I miss. That was unthinkable three years ago.
        germanier 11y ago
        I was surprised, too. Remember that they introduced cashless payments just ten years ago. I think it has much to do with the EU capping interbank fees.
        mafribe 11y ago
        I think the real reason is that Germany had working debit cards for a very long time already, there was simply no need for credit cards. Every bank and store was accepting every banks's debit card. Since the big international credit card companies cream of a couple of percent when you pay with a credit card, but German debit cards don't, retail was really reluctant for a long time to accept credit cards.
  - Kalium 11y ago
    Almost certainly because your landlord is in their 70s and doesn't trust all this newfangled computers stuff. I have one of those.
- onli 11y ago
  Exactly. And virements (bank transfer) are really strange, at least with my bank (wait 24 hours to send money, I never saw that before). For me, that fits well into the image of a country that is not at all modern. But: That at least changed. They are still popular like you said, but by now you can get by without them (I for example have none), many stores do not accept them anymore. That is new.
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    What to say about the US (and Canada) where cheap transfers between bank accounts don't exist (at least from individual to individual) Yes, where it exists it's rarely instantaneous across banks
    - onli 11y ago
      Well, it sounds really impolite saying that. But you can probably guess what I think of it: I think it is really strange that a nation as modern as the USA is in that regard 100 years behind basically all other industrial nations. Though instantaneous they are also not in Germany, can take some time to arrive.
    - twoodfin 11y ago
      There was a good Planet Money episode on this phenomenon[1]. The short version is that, apparently unlike most European countries, there are thousands and thousands of banks in the U.S., each operating under both Federal and one of 50 different state regulatory regimes. It's also the case that the U.S. was one of the first countries to move to electronic interbank check clearing and funds transfer, and the resulting clearinghouse is a big hairy legacy system that they're not particularly inclined or motivated to mess with. [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episode-489-the-invisible-plumbing-of-our-economy http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episo...
    - derekja 11y ago
      Sure they do, in Canada anyway. Interac email transfer is quick and painless, although it costs a dollar or so.
fdej 11y ago
My impression living in France for the last year is very similar to yours. It's the mecca of paperwork (but doing taxes was relatively easy). And if you're required to supply some documentation from another country, you're likely to be required to get it translated to French by an official translator (which not only takes time but can be quite expensive). In contrast, I've never had a problem handing in German documents to authorities in Sweden and Swedish documents to authorities in Austria. Documents in English have certainly been accepted everywhere outside of France. The catch-22s are the best. Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France...
- onli 11y ago
  > Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France... Had the same :) But it is not really true. You can get a french bank account without living in France, got mine while living in Germany. But of course not all people working for a bank know or respect that. We got checked by my consellier very carefully before she said oui to opening the account. Nice is the other one: To get an appartment you normally have to have an insurance, but to get that you need an appartment. Works with the landlord accepting to get the assurance attestation one week later, but is goodwill. Of course, a couple from marokko I know did not get the key from the man responsible in such a situation, while getting the appartment because it was university housing. They stood on the street after arriving here… That was pure racism, but shows that many thing here need goodwill to work despite the system.
- liotier 11y ago
  > The catch-22s are the best. Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France... Not specific to France - I had the same experience as a French in Berlin (though it was twenty years ago - it might have changed).
  - onli 11y ago
    Changed. Does not matter where you send the money from anymore, and european virements are pretty painless.
realusername 11y ago
You have the right answer sadly... It's just impossible to grasp the stupid amount of paperwork you have to fill for everything. As an example I needed more paperwork for my train rail-card than my passport (this is not a joke, it was really the case). In the UK, I just give a 10 pound note and I have my oyster card, no questions asked. My brother has a small business, it's just impossible to understand what the administration wants and they take ages to answer to stupid things we should not even have to fill, I really hope that one day, they will destroy the current bureaucracy and the country could finally have the place it deserves internationally. /rant
- throwaway1967 11y ago
  They were enlightened enough to separate State from Church but not State from Market.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
foobarge 11y ago
> On the other hand, doing the taxes was not at all complicated and I got proper help Tax collection is relentless and very efficient - they act is if it was THEIR money. France can borrow at very little interest rate because it is known that it will repay its debts, it can collect the money for it.
Al-Khwarizmi 11y ago
Spain is exactly the same. Pointless paperwork again and again, asking for things they already know, asking for multiple copies of documents, etc. In fact, when I finished my PhD, in order to graduate they asked me for a birth certificate. A birth certificate! I guess they don't want replicants to graduate.
- onli 11y ago
  They ask for a birth certificate here as well, already when starting. If you are foreigner, each year again. I guess they think the place of birth could've changed…
mercurial 11y ago
(French expat here, so impressions are from a few years ago and reading the press) The tax people are generally competent, and there was a huge effort to streamline the process a few years ago. The rest of the French bureaucracy often lives somewhere in the middle ages ("of course you need to waste several hours by physically coming to our offices"). And the bastards are totally unable to communicate with each other. And that's the ones with funding. The parts which are criminally understaffed like Pôle Emploi (nominally tasked with finding work for the unemployed and distributing benefits), you really don't want to have to do anything with.
pif 11y ago
> It is still the most bureaucratic country on earth. Not really! Italian here, living in France for the last ten years: France bureaucracy can occasionally be pedantic, but no French paperwork has made me miss Italy.
LBarret 11y ago
This is misleading. Many many countries are worse ... And the level of bureaucracy is not the same everywhere in France. Education is a very conservative administration. Universities even more so, because they don't have much money (it's very different than in the US), so they stick to the process (with paper) they have. In the private sector, this is quite different. Also many company-focused administrations (URSAAF, CIPAV) provides web site/app where you can manage your file. It is not perfect, but it's getting better every year. I think my accountant is doing 80% of her job digitally.

by onli 11y ago

seren 11y ago

There is a big incentive for any state to have a well run tax administration. It is the profit center for the state.

yaps8 11y ago

To be fair cheques are still popular in France and regularly used by administration, landlords and individuals.

negrit 11y ago
To be fair cheques are also popular in the US. Until recently I had to pay my rent with Cheque. I live in an apartment complex in San Francisco.
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  My German bank doesn't even offer cheque books anymore.
  - thachmai 11y ago
    Cash is King is Germany. It's rather awkward if you come from a country with heavy card use. It's just weird to carry a few hundred euros in cash in your pocket these days.
    - onli 11y ago
      You need cash in Germany, but not a lot of it – everything big takes a debit card. That does not help strangers with their credit cards though, so they get the wrong impression.
      - germanier 11y ago
        I pay cash at the bakery, to get a coffee, to load my canteen card at work, and to buy bus tickets in small cities at the driver, that's it. Buying used cars is usually done by cash (even 10k and more). Almost everywhere else you can pay with a German debit card (Girocard). But credit Cards are coming fast to Germany. Since a few weeks even the cheapest supermarkets, including Aldi, started to accept MasterCard and Visa.
        onli 11y ago
        Thanks for correcting, not being there too often currently things like credit cards arriving there I miss. That was unthinkable three years ago.
        germanier 11y ago
        I was surprised, too. Remember that they introduced cashless payments just ten years ago. I think it has much to do with the EU capping interbank fees.
        mafribe 11y ago
        I think the real reason is that Germany had working debit cards for a very long time already, there was simply no need for credit cards. Every bank and store was accepting every banks's debit card. Since the big international credit card companies cream of a couple of percent when you pay with a credit card, but German debit cards don't, retail was really reluctant for a long time to accept credit cards.
- Kalium 11y ago
  Almost certainly because your landlord is in their 70s and doesn't trust all this newfangled computers stuff. I have one of those.
onli 11y ago
Exactly. And virements (bank transfer) are really strange, at least with my bank (wait 24 hours to send money, I never saw that before). For me, that fits well into the image of a country that is not at all modern. But: That at least changed. They are still popular like you said, but by now you can get by without them (I for example have none), many stores do not accept them anymore. That is new.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  What to say about the US (and Canada) where cheap transfers between bank accounts don't exist (at least from individual to individual) Yes, where it exists it's rarely instantaneous across banks
  - onli 11y ago
    Well, it sounds really impolite saying that. But you can probably guess what I think of it: I think it is really strange that a nation as modern as the USA is in that regard 100 years behind basically all other industrial nations. Though instantaneous they are also not in Germany, can take some time to arrive.
  - twoodfin 11y ago
    There was a good Planet Money episode on this phenomenon[1]. The short version is that, apparently unlike most European countries, there are thousands and thousands of banks in the U.S., each operating under both Federal and one of 50 different state regulatory regimes. It's also the case that the U.S. was one of the first countries to move to electronic interbank check clearing and funds transfer, and the resulting clearinghouse is a big hairy legacy system that they're not particularly inclined or motivated to mess with. [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episode-489-the-invisible-plumbing-of-our-economy http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episo...
  - derekja 11y ago
    Sure they do, in Canada anyway. Interac email transfer is quick and painless, although it costs a dollar or so.

fdej 11y ago

My impression living in France for the last year is very similar to yours. It's the mecca of paperwork (but doing taxes was relatively easy). And if you're required to supply some documentation from another country, you're likely to be required to get it translated to French by an official translator (which not only takes time but can be quite expensive). In contrast, I've never had a problem handing in German documents to authorities in Sweden and Swedish documents to authorities in Austria. Documents in English have certainly been accepted everywhere outside of France. The catch-22s are the best. Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France...

onli 11y ago
> Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France... Had the same :) But it is not really true. You can get a french bank account without living in France, got mine while living in Germany. But of course not all people working for a bank know or respect that. We got checked by my consellier very carefully before she said oui to opening the account. Nice is the other one: To get an appartment you normally have to have an insurance, but to get that you need an appartment. Works with the landlord accepting to get the assurance attestation one week later, but is goodwill. Of course, a couple from marokko I know did not get the key from the man responsible in such a situation, while getting the appartment because it was university housing. They stood on the street after arriving here… That was pure racism, but shows that many thing here need goodwill to work despite the system.
liotier 11y ago
> The catch-22s are the best. Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France... Not specific to France - I had the same experience as a French in Berlin (though it was twenty years ago - it might have changed).
- onli 11y ago
  Changed. Does not matter where you send the money from anymore, and european virements are pretty painless.

realusername 11y ago

You have the right answer sadly... It's just impossible to grasp the stupid amount of paperwork you have to fill for everything. As an example I needed more paperwork for my train rail-card than my passport (this is not a joke, it was really the case). In the UK, I just give a 10 pound note and I have my oyster card, no questions asked. My brother has a small business, it's just impossible to understand what the administration wants and they take ages to answer to stupid things we should not even have to fill, I really hope that one day, they will destroy the current bureaucracy and the country could finally have the place it deserves internationally. /rant

throwaway1967 11y ago
They were enlightened enough to separate State from Church but not State from Market.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

foobarge 11y ago

> On the other hand, doing the taxes was not at all complicated and I got proper help Tax collection is relentless and very efficient - they act is if it was THEIR money. France can borrow at very little interest rate because it is known that it will repay its debts, it can collect the money for it.

Al-Khwarizmi 11y ago

Spain is exactly the same. Pointless paperwork again and again, asking for things they already know, asking for multiple copies of documents, etc. In fact, when I finished my PhD, in order to graduate they asked me for a birth certificate. A birth certificate! I guess they don't want replicants to graduate.

onli 11y ago
They ask for a birth certificate here as well, already when starting. If you are foreigner, each year again. I guess they think the place of birth could've changed…

mercurial 11y ago

(French expat here, so impressions are from a few years ago and reading the press) The tax people are generally competent, and there was a huge effort to streamline the process a few years ago. The rest of the French bureaucracy often lives somewhere in the middle ages ("of course you need to waste several hours by physically coming to our offices"). And the bastards are totally unable to communicate with each other. And that's the ones with funding. The parts which are criminally understaffed like Pôle Emploi (nominally tasked with finding work for the unemployed and distributing benefits), you really don't want to have to do anything with.

pif 11y ago

> It is still the most bureaucratic country on earth. Not really! Italian here, living in France for the last ten years: France bureaucracy can occasionally be pedantic, but no French paperwork has made me miss Italy.

LBarret 11y ago

This is misleading. Many many countries are worse ... And the level of bureaucracy is not the same everywhere in France. Education is a very conservative administration. Universities even more so, because they don't have much money (it's very different than in the US), so they stick to the process (with paper) they have. In the private sector, this is quite different. Also many company-focused administrations (URSAAF, CIPAV) provides web site/app where you can manage your file. It is not perfect, but it's getting better every year. I think my accountant is doing 80% of her job digitally.