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I'm not talking about the US. And the social responsibility arises from shaping the local economy in such a way that a large number of people become dependent

by pluma 11y ago

I'm not talking about the US. And the social responsibility arises from shaping the local economy in such a way that a large number of people become dependent on the company. If a company becomes the main employer in a small town, it automatically takes on some responsibility. This is less true today when most people know they're not going to work for the same employer until retirement but it is still true for traditional companies with that kind of legacy. It's not about some theoretical ethical responsibility for the greater good of mankind but about taking responsibility for your actions and the effect they have on people you have built a relationship with. If Industrocorp, Inc builds a factory in Podunk and the labour demand raises the number of residents by an order of magnitude, then relocating operations and firing a large number of staff will ruin the local economy the company created. I'm not sure how that concept is difficult to understand: your actions have consequences, ergo you are responsible for the consequences of your actions. Large corporations may be amoral, but the CEO of a privately owned company deciding to offshore half the employees isn't. Especially when the company periodical repeatedly claims that the employees are valued and their families are important. This makes the CEO an asshole. Period.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
The consequence of not shipping jobs to southeast Asia is that folks there will be vastly poorer than unemployed Europeans. That isn't theoretical, its simply a fact. Why does a non-contractual relationship change things? Are you applying the Copenhagen theory of ethics or something? http://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ http://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethi... Also, why dont the workers who became dependent on a company deserve responsibility for that action?
- mtberatwork 11y ago
  Are you seriously implying that it is the responsibility of Western countries to provide and create jobs for southeast Asians?
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    No, but I don't claim companies owe any responsibility to people in their hometown either. Certainly if companies do owe something beyond wages for work performed, I can't see why it wouldn't be owed to the poor rather than the rich.
- pluma 11y ago
  Every member of society[0] (including corporations) actions within the social contracts of that society. Society provides corporations certain affordances, in return corporations contribute to society (by paying taxes, reasonable wages and so on). Corporations don't have any god-given rights of their own, they merely have the privileges granted to them by society (via laws and regulations). I realise HN is a weird place to argue this, but corporations don't exist in a vacuum. They can't exist in a vacuum. Without a state guaranteeing its rights and the means to enforce those rights, a corporation is just a group of individuals. This is not only true for corporations. You don't have any rights other than those afforded to you by society (whether on a local level like the US or a global level like the UN). If there's no-one who's going to enforce your rights, they become purely philosophical (cf. Guantanomo -- unless you believe the UN is going to take on the US government and bail you out of there). The social contract is primarily between an individual and society at a local level. Thanks to globalization it now extends to other societies across the globe, but the responsibilities of a local corporation to residents of a country on the other side of the globe they don't already have any business relationships with is only secondary at best. That said, you're kidding yourself if you are trying to argue that increasing profit (or cutting costs, which boils down to the same effect) by outsourcing to cheaper markets could even remotely be considered something ethically positive. [0] I'm using the terms "society" and "state" or "government" interchangeably here based on the democratic principle that a state derives its legitimation from the people, i.e. the society it governs.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    The social contract is primarily between an individual and society at a local level. What makes the social contract local? Why not say the social contract is primarily between and individual and his race, his class, his clan or his religion? At one time it was considered a violation of the "social contract" for a white man to hire cheaper negro workers (language chosen to evoke that era). Many folks still consider it a violation of the "social contract" to hire someone who isn't Marathi. Why do you choose geographic locality rather than race? Outsourcing to cheaper markets reduces poverty and inequality. As a person who doesn't consider Debbie more valuable than Deepika (both are real people that I know personally), I consider helping Deepkia (born into dire poverty and with little chance to escape) far more ethical than helping Debbie. Stats: http://www.maxroser.com/economic-world-history-in-one-chart/ http://www.maxroser.com/economic-world-history-in-one-chart/ http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/world-poverty/ http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-pr...
- mrrrgn 11y ago
  Pitting the global working class against one another in this fashion will simply drive down wages across the board. Taken to the extreme, eventually the American, European, and SE Asian will be equally poor while c-level executives and investors continue increasing their wealth. Your idea makes a certain kind of sense, but it's not going to lead to anything except even more inequality than we started with.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    More inequality and poverty is the exact opposite of what happened. http://www.maxroser.com/economic-world-history-in-one-chart/ http://www.maxroser.com/economic-world-history-in-one-chart/ http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/world-poverty/ http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-pr...
- kaitai 11y ago
  Why don't the southeast Asians just create their own companies and jobs? Why do you assume that Europeans and Americans have to create jobs there in order for income to be equalized? You are missing a few things before you can say "its simply a fact." It's not a fact and there are many points in history where it has not been true.

by pluma 11y ago

yummyfajitas 11y ago

The consequence of not shipping jobs to southeast Asia is that folks there will be vastly poorer than unemployed Europeans. That isn't theoretical, its simply a fact. Why does a non-contractual relationship change things? Are you applying the Copenhagen theory of ethics or something? http://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ http://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethi... Also, why dont the workers who became dependent on a company deserve responsibility for that action?

mtberatwork 11y ago
Are you seriously implying that it is the responsibility of Western countries to provide and create jobs for southeast Asians?
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  No, but I don't claim companies owe any responsibility to people in their hometown either. Certainly if companies do owe something beyond wages for work performed, I can't see why it wouldn't be owed to the poor rather than the rich.
pluma 11y ago
Every member of society[0] (including corporations) actions within the social contracts of that society. Society provides corporations certain affordances, in return corporations contribute to society (by paying taxes, reasonable wages and so on). Corporations don't have any god-given rights of their own, they merely have the privileges granted to them by society (via laws and regulations). I realise HN is a weird place to argue this, but corporations don't exist in a vacuum. They can't exist in a vacuum. Without a state guaranteeing its rights and the means to enforce those rights, a corporation is just a group of individuals. This is not only true for corporations. You don't have any rights other than those afforded to you by society (whether on a local level like the US or a global level like the UN). If there's no-one who's going to enforce your rights, they become purely philosophical (cf. Guantanomo -- unless you believe the UN is going to take on the US government and bail you out of there). The social contract is primarily between an individual and society at a local level. Thanks to globalization it now extends to other societies across the globe, but the responsibilities of a local corporation to residents of a country on the other side of the globe they don't already have any business relationships with is only secondary at best. That said, you're kidding yourself if you are trying to argue that increasing profit (or cutting costs, which boils down to the same effect) by outsourcing to cheaper markets could even remotely be considered something ethically positive. [0] I'm using the terms "society" and "state" or "government" interchangeably here based on the democratic principle that a state derives its legitimation from the people, i.e. the society it governs.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  The social contract is primarily between an individual and society at a local level. What makes the social contract local? Why not say the social contract is primarily between and individual and his race, his class, his clan or his religion? At one time it was considered a violation of the "social contract" for a white man to hire cheaper negro workers (language chosen to evoke that era). Many folks still consider it a violation of the "social contract" to hire someone who isn't Marathi. Why do you choose geographic locality rather than race? Outsourcing to cheaper markets reduces poverty and inequality. As a person who doesn't consider Debbie more valuable than Deepika (both are real people that I know personally), I consider helping Deepkia (born into dire poverty and with little chance to escape) far more ethical than helping Debbie. Stats: http://www.maxroser.com/economic-world-history-in-one-chart/ http://www.maxroser.com/economic-world-history-in-one-chart/ http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/world-poverty/ http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-pr...
mrrrgn 11y ago
Pitting the global working class against one another in this fashion will simply drive down wages across the board. Taken to the extreme, eventually the American, European, and SE Asian will be equally poor while c-level executives and investors continue increasing their wealth. Your idea makes a certain kind of sense, but it's not going to lead to anything except even more inequality than we started with.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  More inequality and poverty is the exact opposite of what happened. http://www.maxroser.com/economic-world-history-in-one-chart/ http://www.maxroser.com/economic-world-history-in-one-chart/ http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/world-poverty/ http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-pr...
kaitai 11y ago
Why don't the southeast Asians just create their own companies and jobs? Why do you assume that Europeans and Americans have to create jobs there in order for income to be equalized? You are missing a few things before you can say "its simply a fact." It's not a fact and there are many points in history where it has not been true.