5 ms·

> rape town! The amount of assumptions and fear in reactions like these worry me way more than those refugees themselves.

dvfjsdhgfv 11y ago
unfortunately the documented behaviour of the last waves of immigrants on their way to Germany does little to appease these fears
- tobr 11y ago
  Please stop the FUD. It's true that immigrants are over-represented in crime statistics, but that is both as victims and perpetrators, and it must be understood in the light of their socioeconomic status. Regardless, >99% of the people who are coming to Europe right now are not future rapists.
  - Yetanfou 11y ago
    Denying a problem does not solve it. Please read up on those statistics before you start wielding terms like 'FUD'. The 'U' in this case in not justified as it is known that non-western immigrants are heavily overrepresented in crime statistics. Neither is the 'D', for the same reasons. The mere fact that a large part of the immigrants will not commit crimes does not mean you should ignore or talk down the crimes perpetrated by those who do. Which leaves the 'F' for fear. That fear is fed for a large part by the fact that discussing these issues immediately leads to outcries of 'FUD', 'Racism', 'Discrimination' and 'Xenophobia'. Not being allowed to discuss something does not make it go away. It makes it grow in the minds of those subjected to the censure. It also does not help in solving these problems since they have to be visible and understood before they can be solved.
    - Steko 11y ago
      No one is saying don't talk about the issue. People are pointing out that "rape town!" poisons the well on serious debate. Come on.
      - bordercases 11y ago
        Would I have been better off if I just said "(rape!)" (i.e. remove "town")? Just saying "sex market imbalance" felt too P.C. when the real consequence I was trying to emphasize was yeah, guys are going to behave sexually aggressively towards women when they're economically starving and there are more guys than there are women to go around.
        Steko 11y ago
        I believe "rape!" is nearly as bad as it's still just charged invective. A more neutral construction would be something like, 'leading to an increase in <crimes>' and I would have no objection to that.
        emp_zealoth 11y ago
        Why not call problems by their name? Does calling rape an increase in sex crimes helps the victim? No, it waters down the problem so some people can keep living in a fantasy bubble, which could pop when facing pointy, definite words like rape, that just happen to describe the problem
  - A_COMPUTER 11y ago
    People don't like being raped even if you've got a socioeconomic explanation for it :-P
  - LoSboccacc 11y ago
    > 99% of the people according to whom? you don't get to claim FUD and make up bullshit in the same argument
  - guard-of-terra 11y ago
    The problem is, 1% of rapists is an awfully high number considering the severity of problem that is rape. "<1%" suicide terrorists as passengers on your B747 means you're dead. If a society is not able to reduce this "<1%" to at least strict 0,001% by filtering and background checks, it should probably reject the remaining 99% too. This isn't fair to the rest of immigrants but otherwise it will not be fair to your own citizens.
Yetanfou 11y ago
May I suggest looking up statistics on rape in Norway and Sweden before you formulate your next answer? It has been rather well documented - even though both Norway and Sweden tend to try to hide ethnicity (especially when a non-native is involved, leading to the suspicion that absence of information on ethnicity implies foreign origin of the perpetrator) - that the large majority of rape cases (Sweden: 85%, 2006 [1], Norway 'all reported rape cases committed by non-western immigrants', 2007-2009 [2]) in these countries involve non-western immigrants or their first-generation offspring. This problem will not be solved by looking away. Now that these people seem to be there to stay it is adamant that this problem is solved - not by ignoring it but by acting decisively. Denying a problem does not equal acting upon it. Blaming the victim does not do so either. Trying to mollify the circumstances is counterproductive. [1] https://www.bra.se/bra/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/2005-12-14-brottslighet-bland-personer-fodda-i-sverige-och-i-utlandet.html https://www.bra.se/bra/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/200... [2] http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/04/15/nyheter/voldtekt/innenriks/5759702/ http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/04/15/nyheter/voldtekt/innenrik...
- Steko 11y ago
  Shouting 'rape town!' helps though, gotcha!
  - Yetanfou 11y ago
    That is what you get when a normal, level-headed discussion on a subject is not allowed. Merely breaching the subject in public invites accusations of racism, xenophobia and discrimination. That is not helpful as it is clear that the problem does exist. That problem needs to be solved, not ignored or hidden under a false blanket of understanding. A crime is a crime, no matter whether the perpetrator is a native-born or immigrant.
    - Steko 11y ago
      'Rape town!' is not normal level headed discussion on the subject. If you want serious debate I'd suggest you can start by not defending the comment that's clearly overstepped the boundary on what constitutes serious debate.

dvfjsdhgfv 11y ago

unfortunately the documented behaviour of the last waves of immigrants on their way to Germany does little to appease these fears

tobr 11y ago
Please stop the FUD. It's true that immigrants are over-represented in crime statistics, but that is both as victims and perpetrators, and it must be understood in the light of their socioeconomic status. Regardless, >99% of the people who are coming to Europe right now are not future rapists.
- Yetanfou 11y ago
  Denying a problem does not solve it. Please read up on those statistics before you start wielding terms like 'FUD'. The 'U' in this case in not justified as it is known that non-western immigrants are heavily overrepresented in crime statistics. Neither is the 'D', for the same reasons. The mere fact that a large part of the immigrants will not commit crimes does not mean you should ignore or talk down the crimes perpetrated by those who do. Which leaves the 'F' for fear. That fear is fed for a large part by the fact that discussing these issues immediately leads to outcries of 'FUD', 'Racism', 'Discrimination' and 'Xenophobia'. Not being allowed to discuss something does not make it go away. It makes it grow in the minds of those subjected to the censure. It also does not help in solving these problems since they have to be visible and understood before they can be solved.
  - Steko 11y ago
    No one is saying don't talk about the issue. People are pointing out that "rape town!" poisons the well on serious debate. Come on.
    - bordercases 11y ago
      Would I have been better off if I just said "(rape!)" (i.e. remove "town")? Just saying "sex market imbalance" felt too P.C. when the real consequence I was trying to emphasize was yeah, guys are going to behave sexually aggressively towards women when they're economically starving and there are more guys than there are women to go around.
      - Steko 11y ago
        I believe "rape!" is nearly as bad as it's still just charged invective. A more neutral construction would be something like, 'leading to an increase in <crimes>' and I would have no objection to that.
        emp_zealoth 11y ago
        Why not call problems by their name? Does calling rape an increase in sex crimes helps the victim? No, it waters down the problem so some people can keep living in a fantasy bubble, which could pop when facing pointy, definite words like rape, that just happen to describe the problem
- A_COMPUTER 11y ago
  People don't like being raped even if you've got a socioeconomic explanation for it :-P
- LoSboccacc 11y ago
  > 99% of the people according to whom? you don't get to claim FUD and make up bullshit in the same argument
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  The problem is, 1% of rapists is an awfully high number considering the severity of problem that is rape. "<1%" suicide terrorists as passengers on your B747 means you're dead. If a society is not able to reduce this "<1%" to at least strict 0,001% by filtering and background checks, it should probably reject the remaining 99% too. This isn't fair to the rest of immigrants but otherwise it will not be fair to your own citizens.

Yetanfou 11y ago

May I suggest looking up statistics on rape in Norway and Sweden before you formulate your next answer? It has been rather well documented - even though both Norway and Sweden tend to try to hide ethnicity (especially when a non-native is involved, leading to the suspicion that absence of information on ethnicity implies foreign origin of the perpetrator) - that the large majority of rape cases (Sweden: 85%, 2006 [1], Norway 'all reported rape cases committed by non-western immigrants', 2007-2009 [2]) in these countries involve non-western immigrants or their first-generation offspring. This problem will not be solved by looking away. Now that these people seem to be there to stay it is adamant that this problem is solved - not by ignoring it but by acting decisively. Denying a problem does not equal acting upon it. Blaming the victim does not do so either. Trying to mollify the circumstances is counterproductive. [1] https://www.bra.se/bra/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/2005-12-14-brottslighet-bland-personer-fodda-i-sverige-och-i-utlandet.html https://www.bra.se/bra/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/200... [2] http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/04/15/nyheter/voldtekt/innenriks/5759702/ http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/04/15/nyheter/voldtekt/innenrik...

Steko 11y ago
Shouting 'rape town!' helps though, gotcha!
- Yetanfou 11y ago
  That is what you get when a normal, level-headed discussion on a subject is not allowed. Merely breaching the subject in public invites accusations of racism, xenophobia and discrimination. That is not helpful as it is clear that the problem does exist. That problem needs to be solved, not ignored or hidden under a false blanket of understanding. A crime is a crime, no matter whether the perpetrator is a native-born or immigrant.
  - Steko 11y ago
    'Rape town!' is not normal level headed discussion on the subject. If you want serious debate I'd suggest you can start by not defending the comment that's clearly overstepped the boundary on what constitutes serious debate.