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>“The difficulty is getting enough teachers who are trained in it, and trained well enough to make it a good introduction to computer science,” said Barbara Eri

>“The difficulty is getting enough teachers who are trained in it, and trained well enough to make it a good introduction to computer science,” said Barbara Ericson, the director of computing outreach at Georgia Tech’s College of Computing. “And if you are well-trained in computer science, you can make a lot more money in industry than teaching.” Seems to be the real problem here. What kind of negative effect might result from a bunch of unqualified high school teachers teaching CS poorly? Is some exposure better than none regardless of teaching quality?

dylanjermiah 11y ago
Yep. I'd rather have a MOOC-esque course where you can be certain the quality of eduction will permeate to the areas where quality education is scarce.
christopheraden 11y ago
>What kind of negative effect might result from a bunch of unqualified high school teachers teaching CS poorly? Is some exposure better than none regardless of teaching quality? Is this problem similar enough to math that we can draw on data about mathematics education in schools? You can make a lot more money in industry with a math degree than you can teaching math to grade schoolers. Certainly, we hear tons of stories about unqualified math and science teachers, and all the harm they do to a desire to learn math, but I'm sure some students get exposure to math that wouldn't normally have much desire to immerse themselves in it.
zardo 11y ago
The negative effect would be kids with a poor understanding of CS, which is still a step up from kids with no understanding of CS.
- nemo44x 11y ago
  Is that so? I always figured it's worse to think you know something when you don't than to not know something and know you don't.
  - perfTerm 11y ago
    On the day to day level I'd say certain subjects might be more applicable to this sentiment than others. For instance, sexual education where the results can be life changing. But as for computer science, like regular science, it will inspire a few kids who go on to learn their follies and produce work in the field and everyone else will either trudge through it or drop it and never have it affect their daily life in any manner so it doesn't particularly matter and is probably better to have those extra inspired children in society. That being said, a course on the things that will actually effect most every childs life such as what are those TOS things you click away near constantly, where are the privacy settings in facebook and what are the different levels of privacy and what can you do in abusive or threatening situations, how often does personal data get stolen, how to store confidential material in a way minimize potential vectors for attack, etc. That'd be an absolutely useful course and would be best if taught well (as opposed to abstinence only education to continue my thought streams from above).
    - dopeboy 11y ago
      > On the day to day level I'd say certain subjects might be more applicable to this sentiment than others. For instance, sexual education where the results can be life changing. I'd argue acquiring skills that could take one out of poverty as pretty life changing. > But as for computer science, like regular science, it will inspire a few kids who go on to learn their follies and produce work in the field and everyone else will either trudge through it or drop it and never have it affect their daily life in any manner so it doesn't particularly matter and is probably better to have those extra inspired children in society. It's worth trying for the sake of the kids who do go on to make a difference. And even for the ones who decide not to pursue programming as a profession, it is a net benefit for them to know on a high level how a computer operates. Regarding privacy, 100% agree. This could be a great sub component to a computer literacy course.
      - perfTerm 11y ago
        Yea it may be worded odd but I'm all for it and was very happy to see the announcement even if it won't be mandatory for all students (which is nice in some ways for the teachers and students both I think).
merpnderp 11y ago
It would be far outweighed by the positive effect of getting kids interested in programming. My first experience programming was when I was 7 and my 8 year old neighbor from Brazil would alter text based DOS games. Then we started making our own BASIC games. Who cares that we were using GOTO everywhere and doing everything wrong. We learned to love programming.
dopeboy 11y ago
Yep, this is the central problem and I'm disappointed the city isn't taking any steps in offering incentives to potential teachers. The hard truth is there's a huge opportunity-cost for a professional programmer to step into a ~$50k role. On a broader scale, what needs to happen is a TFA like organization for programmers that works with companies and source their employees for 1-2 year tours of duty. This org would train programmers how to teach (good programmer != good teacher) and place these programmers in schools that need them. Most critically, this org would need to convince employers to count this service as part of the employee's total work experience and professional development.
- cinquemb 11y ago
  I think it depends, will the teachers need a degree to teach kids? I can see someone who dropped or didn't go to college, but worked professionally for at least 4-6 years in different technical roles would probably take the ~$50k as long as they can have flexibility create their own lesson plans and don't have to teach to some fizz buzz test on pen and paper (part of society's tendency to drive things to the LCD)… might be a breath of fresh air from their typical corporate environments, at least for a couple years. Do I think something like this will happen, probably not.
- larrykubin 11y ago
  I am volunteering to teach in Seattle through the TEALS program (started by a Microsoft employee) for a couple of hours a week: https://www.tealsk12.org/ https://www.tealsk12.org/ We had a few summer training sessions to learn how to be effective teachers, and they have some lesson plans written out for teaching with Snap (a visual language based on Scratch). The high school in our neighborhood wants to offer AP Computer Science eventually, but we are starting with an Intro to CS class first. I agree that it will be hard to find professional software developers who will leave their job to become teachers, so it seems like we are relying on volunteers who have a good work life balance at this point. Appreciate the blog post on your previous comment, sounds like NYC has its own similar organization. Anxiously awaiting school to start on Thursday :).
  - dopeboy 11y ago

dylanjermiah 11y ago

Yep. I'd rather have a MOOC-esque course where you can be certain the quality of eduction will permeate to the areas where quality education is scarce.

christopheraden 11y ago

>What kind of negative effect might result from a bunch of unqualified high school teachers teaching CS poorly? Is some exposure better than none regardless of teaching quality? Is this problem similar enough to math that we can draw on data about mathematics education in schools? You can make a lot more money in industry with a math degree than you can teaching math to grade schoolers. Certainly, we hear tons of stories about unqualified math and science teachers, and all the harm they do to a desire to learn math, but I'm sure some students get exposure to math that wouldn't normally have much desire to immerse themselves in it.

zardo 11y ago

The negative effect would be kids with a poor understanding of CS, which is still a step up from kids with no understanding of CS.

nemo44x 11y ago
Is that so? I always figured it's worse to think you know something when you don't than to not know something and know you don't.
- perfTerm 11y ago
  On the day to day level I'd say certain subjects might be more applicable to this sentiment than others. For instance, sexual education where the results can be life changing. But as for computer science, like regular science, it will inspire a few kids who go on to learn their follies and produce work in the field and everyone else will either trudge through it or drop it and never have it affect their daily life in any manner so it doesn't particularly matter and is probably better to have those extra inspired children in society. That being said, a course on the things that will actually effect most every childs life such as what are those TOS things you click away near constantly, where are the privacy settings in facebook and what are the different levels of privacy and what can you do in abusive or threatening situations, how often does personal data get stolen, how to store confidential material in a way minimize potential vectors for attack, etc. That'd be an absolutely useful course and would be best if taught well (as opposed to abstinence only education to continue my thought streams from above).
  - dopeboy 11y ago
    > On the day to day level I'd say certain subjects might be more applicable to this sentiment than others. For instance, sexual education where the results can be life changing. I'd argue acquiring skills that could take one out of poverty as pretty life changing. > But as for computer science, like regular science, it will inspire a few kids who go on to learn their follies and produce work in the field and everyone else will either trudge through it or drop it and never have it affect their daily life in any manner so it doesn't particularly matter and is probably better to have those extra inspired children in society. It's worth trying for the sake of the kids who do go on to make a difference. And even for the ones who decide not to pursue programming as a profession, it is a net benefit for them to know on a high level how a computer operates. Regarding privacy, 100% agree. This could be a great sub component to a computer literacy course.
    - perfTerm 11y ago
      Yea it may be worded odd but I'm all for it and was very happy to see the announcement even if it won't be mandatory for all students (which is nice in some ways for the teachers and students both I think).

merpnderp 11y ago

It would be far outweighed by the positive effect of getting kids interested in programming. My first experience programming was when I was 7 and my 8 year old neighbor from Brazil would alter text based DOS games. Then we started making our own BASIC games. Who cares that we were using GOTO everywhere and doing everything wrong. We learned to love programming.

dopeboy 11y ago

Yep, this is the central problem and I'm disappointed the city isn't taking any steps in offering incentives to potential teachers. The hard truth is there's a huge opportunity-cost for a professional programmer to step into a ~$50k role. On a broader scale, what needs to happen is a TFA like organization for programmers that works with companies and source their employees for 1-2 year tours of duty. This org would train programmers how to teach (good programmer != good teacher) and place these programmers in schools that need them. Most critically, this org would need to convince employers to count this service as part of the employee's total work experience and professional development.

cinquemb 11y ago
I think it depends, will the teachers need a degree to teach kids? I can see someone who dropped or didn't go to college, but worked professionally for at least 4-6 years in different technical roles would probably take the ~$50k as long as they can have flexibility create their own lesson plans and don't have to teach to some fizz buzz test on pen and paper (part of society's tendency to drive things to the LCD)… might be a breath of fresh air from their typical corporate environments, at least for a couple years. Do I think something like this will happen, probably not.
larrykubin 11y ago
I am volunteering to teach in Seattle through the TEALS program (started by a Microsoft employee) for a couple of hours a week: https://www.tealsk12.org/ https://www.tealsk12.org/ We had a few summer training sessions to learn how to be effective teachers, and they have some lesson plans written out for teaching with Snap (a visual language based on Scratch). The high school in our neighborhood wants to offer AP Computer Science eventually, but we are starting with an Intro to CS class first. I agree that it will be hard to find professional software developers who will leave their job to become teachers, so it seems like we are relying on volunteers who have a good work life balance at this point. Appreciate the blog post on your previous comment, sounds like NYC has its own similar organization. Anxiously awaiting school to start on Thursday :).
- dopeboy 11y ago