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>egalitarian Meritocratic, perhaps. HN is pretty Libertarian, and Libertarianism is the polar opposite of egalitarianism. It's the equal opportunity vs equal

>egalitarian Meritocratic, perhaps. HN is pretty Libertarian, and Libertarianism is the polar opposite of egalitarianism. It's the equal opportunity vs equal outcome divide.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
Either way you cut it, we're pretty bent against the incumbent.
- larrys 11y ago
  Maybe those with non-conforming views simply decide to keep their mouths shut for fear of some kind of retribution which could be either written or downvotes by the majority that are reading a particular story or comment thread.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    I'd encourage you to speak your mind. I purposely upvote comments I don't agree with as long as they're constructive to the conversation.
- wwweston 11y ago
  The status quo seems to more or less think of itself as meritocratic, too.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > The status quo seems to more or less think of itself as meritocratic, too. Those successful in the status quo at any point in time are inclined to perceive, or at least portray, that status quo as meritocratic. This probably shouldn't be surprising.
nitrogen 11y ago
Different members of HN have different views. It's not a homogeneous body, and different articles will draw out different groups.
notNow 11y ago
Libertarianism in what sense? The contemporary American understanding of the term or the international one?
- wpietri 11y ago
  I think that's a legitimate question. Long ago in college I met some libertarians handing out literature. I'd say they were thoroughly egalitarian ("believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities"). One of their core points was that authoritarianism (what I'd call the true opposite of libertarianism) tended toward deep inequality. But the modern American version of libertarianism seems to have become something very different than what I saw of it in the late 80's.
  - darkr 11y ago
    > Long ago in college I met some libertarians handing out literature. Dude, those were librarians.
  - PhasmaFelis 11y ago
    > I'd say they were thoroughly egalitarian ("believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities"). For some (not all) libertarians, "equal rights and opportunities" means that a healthy college grad and a schizophrenic homeless person have an equal right to apply for the same job, and if the latter can't get a job or any support and starves to death in the street, society's hands are clean--after all, they had the same opportunity as anyone. "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread."
    - AnthonyMouse 11y ago
      > For some (not all) libertarians, "equal rights and opportunities" means that a healthy college grad and a schizophrenic homeless person have an equal right to apply for the same job, and if the latter can't get a job or any support and starves to death in the street, society's hands are clean--after all, they had the same opportunity as anyone. The libertarian retort is that society's hands are not clean. Whether a homeless person starves without government assistance is a reflection of society. You are not obligated to let it happen just because men with guns don't force you not to, and it is a reflection on you whether you do or not. And, so the libertarian argument goes, in order for the homeless to be fed with government assistance you need a majority of citizens to vote for programs to help the homeless. But if you have the support of a majority of citizens then they need only vote with their wallets and no government action is required. More than that, when you put the burden of helping the poor on the government instead of individual members of society then when the government fails to do what is necessary each person need only shrug and claim "I paid my taxes" to be absolved of their inaction in the face of it.
icebraining 11y ago
Well, part of Libertarianism is opposite of egalitarianism. Left-Libertarianism isn't, and I'd wager there are quite a few around here, which may be confused with their right-wing counterparts when speaking about many issues regarding the State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
ekianjo 11y ago
> HN is pretty Libertarian, and Libertarianism is the polar opposite of egalitarianism. That's a pretty bold claim. On HN we see the recurring "growing inequalities are bad"-posts whining all the time. Libertarians are not against inequalities in the first place, so I'd say HN is rather not too Libertarian, while there are certainly more Libertarians here than on other communities.
exo762 11y ago
Sorry, there is nothing about equal opportunity in Libertarianism. If anything, it is against it. Libertarianism does nothing to equate chances of new born human. All that he is and will be is mostly determined by family he is born into. Example: HN entrepreneurs were mostly born into rich families. Egalitarianism is about equality of opportunity. I.e. you will not be prevented from becoming rich as fuck, but expect that passing all that wealth of money onto your children will be a bit harder and other children's education will be paid from your taxes. And the third beast: communism. Equality of opportunity and outcomes.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 11y ago
  It's sad how (in the US) right-wing people have managed to completely overshadow the long and rich history of Libertarianism, both in Europe and in the US - though to be fair, liberals had already done to the same to them :)

>egalitarian Meritocratic, perhaps. HN is pretty Libertarian, and Libertarianism is the polar opposite of egalitarianism. It's the equal opportunity vs equal outcome divide.

toomuchtodo 11y ago

Either way you cut it, we're pretty bent against the incumbent.

larrys 11y ago
Maybe those with non-conforming views simply decide to keep their mouths shut for fear of some kind of retribution which could be either written or downvotes by the majority that are reading a particular story or comment thread.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  I'd encourage you to speak your mind. I purposely upvote comments I don't agree with as long as they're constructive to the conversation.
wwweston 11y ago
The status quo seems to more or less think of itself as meritocratic, too.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > The status quo seems to more or less think of itself as meritocratic, too. Those successful in the status quo at any point in time are inclined to perceive, or at least portray, that status quo as meritocratic. This probably shouldn't be surprising.

nitrogen 11y ago

Different members of HN have different views. It's not a homogeneous body, and different articles will draw out different groups.

notNow 11y ago

Libertarianism in what sense? The contemporary American understanding of the term or the international one?

wpietri 11y ago
I think that's a legitimate question. Long ago in college I met some libertarians handing out literature. I'd say they were thoroughly egalitarian ("believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities"). One of their core points was that authoritarianism (what I'd call the true opposite of libertarianism) tended toward deep inequality. But the modern American version of libertarianism seems to have become something very different than what I saw of it in the late 80's.
- darkr 11y ago
  > Long ago in college I met some libertarians handing out literature. Dude, those were librarians.
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago
  > I'd say they were thoroughly egalitarian ("believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities"). For some (not all) libertarians, "equal rights and opportunities" means that a healthy college grad and a schizophrenic homeless person have an equal right to apply for the same job, and if the latter can't get a job or any support and starves to death in the street, society's hands are clean--after all, they had the same opportunity as anyone. "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread."
  - AnthonyMouse 11y ago
    > For some (not all) libertarians, "equal rights and opportunities" means that a healthy college grad and a schizophrenic homeless person have an equal right to apply for the same job, and if the latter can't get a job or any support and starves to death in the street, society's hands are clean--after all, they had the same opportunity as anyone. The libertarian retort is that society's hands are not clean. Whether a homeless person starves without government assistance is a reflection of society. You are not obligated to let it happen just because men with guns don't force you not to, and it is a reflection on you whether you do or not. And, so the libertarian argument goes, in order for the homeless to be fed with government assistance you need a majority of citizens to vote for programs to help the homeless. But if you have the support of a majority of citizens then they need only vote with their wallets and no government action is required. More than that, when you put the burden of helping the poor on the government instead of individual members of society then when the government fails to do what is necessary each person need only shrug and claim "I paid my taxes" to be absolved of their inaction in the face of it.

icebraining 11y ago

Well, part of Libertarianism is opposite of egalitarianism. Left-Libertarianism isn't, and I'd wager there are quite a few around here, which may be confused with their right-wing counterparts when speaking about many issues regarding the State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

ekianjo 11y ago

> HN is pretty Libertarian, and Libertarianism is the polar opposite of egalitarianism. That's a pretty bold claim. On HN we see the recurring "growing inequalities are bad"-posts whining all the time. Libertarians are not against inequalities in the first place, so I'd say HN is rather not too Libertarian, while there are certainly more Libertarians here than on other communities.

exo762 11y ago

Sorry, there is nothing about equal opportunity in Libertarianism. If anything, it is against it. Libertarianism does nothing to equate chances of new born human. All that he is and will be is mostly determined by family he is born into. Example: HN entrepreneurs were mostly born into rich families. Egalitarianism is about equality of opportunity. I.e. you will not be prevented from becoming rich as fuck, but expect that passing all that wealth of money onto your children will be a bit harder and other children's education will be paid from your taxes. And the third beast: communism. Equality of opportunity and outcomes.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
icebraining 11y ago
It's sad how (in the US) right-wing people have managed to completely overshadow the long and rich history of Libertarianism, both in Europe and in the US - though to be fair, liberals had already done to the same to them :)