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IMO the EU is too protective of its economy to allow the kind of innovation Silicon Valley is famous for. The EU has a default assumption of "you have to prove

by exelius 11y ago

IMO the EU is too protective of its economy to allow the kind of innovation Silicon Valley is famous for. The EU has a default assumption of "you have to prove that this will not be harmful before you can do it" where the US has a default assumption of "someone else has to prove that this will be harmful before we will stop you". The important part is that this burden of proof in the US is not placed on a company at a time before they have revenue to prove it. By the time they're big enough to have to defend themselves from an attack on regulatory grounds, they have the means to do so. Something like Uber could never have come out of Europe. A large company that is breaking the law while competing with regulated taxis and remaining unregulated themselves? That would never fly in the EU, and Uber has met a lot more resistance there than the US. They're only able to address the EU market because they have a large, profitable base in the US. In any measure, the regulatory culture in the US is much more laissez-faire than the EU. In the US, you can do whatever you want as long as it's not explicitly illegal. In the EU, you can do whatever you want, as long as you prove that it's not illegal first. It's a huge difference, and it's one of the biggest cultural differences between Europe and the US.

chimeracoder 11y ago
> They're only able to address the EU market because they have a large, profitable base in the US. Uber is only able to address any market because they have a ton of outside venture funding. Don't get me wrong - I agree that the EU is overly protective and that this harms their startup economy, but Uber is not a good example of that point.
- exelius 11y ago
  That's true of any startup. But I guarantee you in one of those venture funding pitches someone asked them "So most cities have taxi regulations that make what you're trying to do illegal. How are you dealing with that?" Their answer was basically "Fuck 'em, we'll flood the market with cheap product, make consumers love it and the regulators will cave." That would not have worked in Europe if they hadn't already done it in a bunch of cities across the US.
  - 001sky 11y ago
    "That's true of any startup" no, not really. its only true specific contexts. which was the point of the previous comment. but you're right in the second part, that's sort of a confidence game...success begets success.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    If Uber is so great, when are they gonna make a profit?
- tim333 11y ago
  Indeed. There were a load of London based taxi apps eg http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-3057608/Six-best-minicab-taxi-apps-revealed-Forget-waving-street-corners-let-phone-work.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-3057608/Six... The thing Uber has which I think it would only get in Silicon Valley is about $8bn of funding. The biggest UK company I think is Hailo which raised about $100m. It'll be interesting to see how they do in China where the competitors have raised similar vc - Kuaidi raised $950 and I think Uber are spending a billion or so in China.
  - ThomPete 11y ago
    So why aren't there more US investors in Europe if it's purely a matter of funding. The answer IMO is that it's not.
Silhouette 11y ago
Something like Uber could never have come out of Europe. A large company that is breaking the law while competing with regulated taxis and remaining unregulated themselves? That would never fly in the EU, This is a feature, not a bug. We do tend to regulate some areas more in Europe than the US, but from various on-line discussions about Uber in recent months, I have come to the conclusion that the original problem they are trying to solve is much worse in the US than the EU. Meanwhile, I have no problem with requiring any service competing with regular taxis to be held to the same standards in terms of vehicle maintenance, insurance, checks on drivers, standardised metered pricing so passengers know what to expect, etc. Being able to beat the incumbent because you broke the law and took shortcuts that could affect safety is not impressive. Also, I don't know where you got the idea that in the EU you need to prove what you're doing is not harmful or illegal before you can do it, but you're completely wrong.
- exelius 11y ago
  > This is a feature, not a bug. I actually don't disagree with you; but my original point is that the US actively prioritizes giving companies space to operate without government intervention over protecting the rights of its citizens. It generally makes the US a worse place to live, but a better place to start a business. > Also, I don't know where you got the idea that in the EU you need to prove what you're doing is not harmful or illegal before you can do it, but you're completely wrong. Maybe poorly worded, but in the US the prevailing attitude is that it's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Because our government is generally underfunded (domestically anyway), it doesn't usually go out looking for problems anyway. So you can often get away with disregarding regulations as long as you don't make too much noise while doing it. And even if you get caught, you hire lawyers to negotiate the penalty down to 10% of what it would normally have been.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    I think those working in online poker etc would disagree - the local monopoly was protected very strongly. And there are the non tariff barriers look how hard it is to import eu cars
DanBC 11y ago
> In the US, you can do whatever you want as long as it's not explicitly illegal. That feels wrong. Maybe it's just a distorted picture I get from outside the US. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplic...
- ghaff 11y ago
  In all fairness, that's a news story precisely because it is a "man bites dog" situation. It's not the norm for every lemonade stand and bake sale to be shut down by overzealous regulators. That said "In the US, you can do whatever you want as long as it's not explicitly illegal" is somewhat hyperbolic. Certainly there are things like zoning regulations and other laws that limit what you can do with your property, for example. However, I do think that there is a greater presumption of being able to do and say things in the US so long as they aren't specifically prohibited in some way. (Obviously private parties have the ability to govern a lot of behaviors on their own property.)
- rayiner 11y ago
  I'm not sure whether the U.S. actually has less regulation or it's just a matter of the fact that most regulations that affect small businesses are handled at the state level, and the states are pretty lax about enforcement.
  - ThomPete 11y ago
    A very good point.
rospaya 11y ago
> Something like Uber could never have come out of Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlaBlaCar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlaBlaCar
- jonknee 11y ago
  > The startup's economic model is designed for long distances and geared toward motorists looking to fill empty seats during journeys they would have been making anyway. So, not like Uber at all and not something that takes on the heavily regulated taxi industry.
- boreas 11y ago
  BlaBlaCar is actually owned by SNCF, the French state-owned railway company. So Blablacar is actually part of the government monopoly on all long-distance travel (even highways cost money to use). I don't think it's the best standard-bearer for the European startup scene.
  - SilasX 11y ago
    Wait, what? The Wikipedia page says it's private. Even the French version makes no reference to SNCF. The closest I could find was SNCF being one of many investor-owners. [1] Even if it were so owned, its entire history looks like a startup (lots of financing rounds, building out the product, about having to raise capital), so even if there was a buyout, it overcame whatever regulatory hurdles should have prevented this kind of thing in France. Where are you getting this information? [1] http://bfmbusiness.bfmtv.com/entreprise/la-sncf-investit-28-millions-d-euros-dans-un-concurrent-de-blablacar-897371.html http://bfmbusiness.bfmtv.com/entreprise/la-sncf-investit-28-...
    - tim333 11y ago
      Turns out SNCF set up a Bla Bla competitor / rip off which it owns - idvroom.
  - pyb 11y ago
    Not at all.
ionised 11y ago
> The EU has a default assumption of "you have to prove that this will not be harmful before you can do it" This is bad for big business, good for citizens. As a citizen I hope it stays this way. Regulation is our friend and it's the reason so many in the EU are against TTIP. A race to the bottom of common regulation on either side of the Atlantic is something that will only be harmful to the average EU populace. Suddenly we'd have growth hormone in our meat and shit like this; http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-dropped-pesticide-laws-due-to-us-pressure-over-ttip-documents-reveal http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-droppe...

by exelius 11y ago

chimeracoder 11y ago

> They're only able to address the EU market because they have a large, profitable base in the US. Uber is only able to address any market because they have a ton of outside venture funding. Don't get me wrong - I agree that the EU is overly protective and that this harms their startup economy, but Uber is not a good example of that point.

exelius 11y ago
That's true of any startup. But I guarantee you in one of those venture funding pitches someone asked them "So most cities have taxi regulations that make what you're trying to do illegal. How are you dealing with that?" Their answer was basically "Fuck 'em, we'll flood the market with cheap product, make consumers love it and the regulators will cave." That would not have worked in Europe if they hadn't already done it in a bunch of cities across the US.
- 001sky 11y ago
  "That's true of any startup" no, not really. its only true specific contexts. which was the point of the previous comment. but you're right in the second part, that's sort of a confidence game...success begets success.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  If Uber is so great, when are they gonna make a profit?
tim333 11y ago
Indeed. There were a load of London based taxi apps eg http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-3057608/Six-best-minicab-taxi-apps-revealed-Forget-waving-street-corners-let-phone-work.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-3057608/Six... The thing Uber has which I think it would only get in Silicon Valley is about $8bn of funding. The biggest UK company I think is Hailo which raised about $100m. It'll be interesting to see how they do in China where the competitors have raised similar vc - Kuaidi raised $950 and I think Uber are spending a billion or so in China.
- ThomPete 11y ago
  So why aren't there more US investors in Europe if it's purely a matter of funding. The answer IMO is that it's not.

Silhouette 11y ago

Something like Uber could never have come out of Europe. A large company that is breaking the law while competing with regulated taxis and remaining unregulated themselves? That would never fly in the EU, This is a feature, not a bug. We do tend to regulate some areas more in Europe than the US, but from various on-line discussions about Uber in recent months, I have come to the conclusion that the original problem they are trying to solve is much worse in the US than the EU. Meanwhile, I have no problem with requiring any service competing with regular taxis to be held to the same standards in terms of vehicle maintenance, insurance, checks on drivers, standardised metered pricing so passengers know what to expect, etc. Being able to beat the incumbent because you broke the law and took shortcuts that could affect safety is not impressive. Also, I don't know where you got the idea that in the EU you need to prove what you're doing is not harmful or illegal before you can do it, but you're completely wrong.

exelius 11y ago
> This is a feature, not a bug. I actually don't disagree with you; but my original point is that the US actively prioritizes giving companies space to operate without government intervention over protecting the rights of its citizens. It generally makes the US a worse place to live, but a better place to start a business. > Also, I don't know where you got the idea that in the EU you need to prove what you're doing is not harmful or illegal before you can do it, but you're completely wrong. Maybe poorly worded, but in the US the prevailing attitude is that it's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. Because our government is generally underfunded (domestically anyway), it doesn't usually go out looking for problems anyway. So you can often get away with disregarding regulations as long as you don't make too much noise while doing it. And even if you get caught, you hire lawyers to negotiate the penalty down to 10% of what it would normally have been.
- walshemj 11y ago
  I think those working in online poker etc would disagree - the local monopoly was protected very strongly. And there are the non tariff barriers look how hard it is to import eu cars

DanBC 11y ago

> In the US, you can do whatever you want as long as it's not explicitly illegal. That feels wrong. Maybe it's just a distorted picture I get from outside the US. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplic...

ghaff 11y ago
In all fairness, that's a news story precisely because it is a "man bites dog" situation. It's not the norm for every lemonade stand and bake sale to be shut down by overzealous regulators. That said "In the US, you can do whatever you want as long as it's not explicitly illegal" is somewhat hyperbolic. Certainly there are things like zoning regulations and other laws that limit what you can do with your property, for example. However, I do think that there is a greater presumption of being able to do and say things in the US so long as they aren't specifically prohibited in some way. (Obviously private parties have the ability to govern a lot of behaviors on their own property.)
rayiner 11y ago
I'm not sure whether the U.S. actually has less regulation or it's just a matter of the fact that most regulations that affect small businesses are handled at the state level, and the states are pretty lax about enforcement.
- ThomPete 11y ago
  A very good point.

rospaya 11y ago

> Something like Uber could never have come out of Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlaBlaCar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlaBlaCar

jonknee 11y ago
> The startup's economic model is designed for long distances and geared toward motorists looking to fill empty seats during journeys they would have been making anyway. So, not like Uber at all and not something that takes on the heavily regulated taxi industry.
boreas 11y ago
BlaBlaCar is actually owned by SNCF, the French state-owned railway company. So Blablacar is actually part of the government monopoly on all long-distance travel (even highways cost money to use). I don't think it's the best standard-bearer for the European startup scene.
- SilasX 11y ago
  Wait, what? The Wikipedia page says it's private. Even the French version makes no reference to SNCF. The closest I could find was SNCF being one of many investor-owners. [1] Even if it were so owned, its entire history looks like a startup (lots of financing rounds, building out the product, about having to raise capital), so even if there was a buyout, it overcame whatever regulatory hurdles should have prevented this kind of thing in France. Where are you getting this information? [1] http://bfmbusiness.bfmtv.com/entreprise/la-sncf-investit-28-millions-d-euros-dans-un-concurrent-de-blablacar-897371.html http://bfmbusiness.bfmtv.com/entreprise/la-sncf-investit-28-...
  - tim333 11y ago
    Turns out SNCF set up a Bla Bla competitor / rip off which it owns - idvroom.
- pyb 11y ago
  Not at all.

ionised 11y ago

> The EU has a default assumption of "you have to prove that this will not be harmful before you can do it" This is bad for big business, good for citizens. As a citizen I hope it stays this way. Regulation is our friend and it's the reason so many in the EU are against TTIP. A race to the bottom of common regulation on either side of the Atlantic is something that will only be harmful to the average EU populace. Suddenly we'd have growth hormone in our meat and shit like this; http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-dropped-pesticide-laws-due-to-us-pressure-over-ttip-documents-reveal http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-droppe...