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> but it's a smell when a language is so verbose that it effectively requires a machine to help you write it Meh. People say the same thing right before starti

by ryandvm 11y ago

> but it's a smell when a language is so verbose that it effectively requires a machine to help you write it Meh. People say the same thing right before starting a Node project with Sublime. Then they proceed to write an unmaintainable mess of JavaScript. With only the original author knowing who calls what, what gets returned, interface definitions, etc. I have yet to find a language that doesn't benefit from a capable, intelligent IDE.

adrusi 11y ago
An IDE won't save you from writing a mess. For that you need good programmers, not good tools.
- royjacobs 11y ago
  If a professional craftsman is building a house I'm sure he prefers using power tools to having to screw all screws in manually.
  - cwyers 11y ago
    Yeah. Good tools won't make a bad craftsman good, and that's as true for programming as it is for carpentry and plumbing. But that doesn't mean that good tools don't help good programmers.
  - adrusi 11y ago
    Prefers it, sure, but a great craftsman could build a better house using only manual tools than I could using any tool I want in the same amount of time. Also note that a carpenter building a house probably wouldn't choose the most powerful tools (tower crane, etc) even if financials were taken out of the equation. It doesn't make much sense to compare go's standard toolchain to building a house without power tools. What an IDE gets you over a more unix-like toolchain is integration, nothing more. They have all the same capabilities, but an IDE is designed to make a specific prescribed workflow seamless. There simply is no good analogy for this, carpenters don't have a universal tool that acts as a nailgun, drill, power screwdriver, wrench and saw at the same time.
joesmo 11y ago
I couldn't agree more. I see a ton of code that's not formatted correctly, doesn't have proper docblocks and a whole bunch of other stuff that was obviously left out because the creators were too lazy and didn't have the proper tools that would make fixing small things like that simple and easy. This almost always comes from people who claim they don't need an IDE. If you truly don't need an IDE and can write code that's up to par with people that do have one, that's fine. But most of the time, I just hear excuses of why the code isn't clean, and I automatically assume that these people just don't care about their work at all because they're not even interested in tools that will better their code. Needless to say, I try never to work with them again. EDIT: Other stuff that's often gotten wrong are short variable/function names and spacing.

by ryandvm 11y ago

adrusi 11y ago

An IDE won't save you from writing a mess. For that you need good programmers, not good tools.

royjacobs 11y ago
If a professional craftsman is building a house I'm sure he prefers using power tools to having to screw all screws in manually.
- cwyers 11y ago
  Yeah. Good tools won't make a bad craftsman good, and that's as true for programming as it is for carpentry and plumbing. But that doesn't mean that good tools don't help good programmers.
- adrusi 11y ago
  Prefers it, sure, but a great craftsman could build a better house using only manual tools than I could using any tool I want in the same amount of time. Also note that a carpenter building a house probably wouldn't choose the most powerful tools (tower crane, etc) even if financials were taken out of the equation. It doesn't make much sense to compare go's standard toolchain to building a house without power tools. What an IDE gets you over a more unix-like toolchain is integration, nothing more. They have all the same capabilities, but an IDE is designed to make a specific prescribed workflow seamless. There simply is no good analogy for this, carpenters don't have a universal tool that acts as a nailgun, drill, power screwdriver, wrench and saw at the same time.

joesmo 11y ago

I couldn't agree more. I see a ton of code that's not formatted correctly, doesn't have proper docblocks and a whole bunch of other stuff that was obviously left out because the creators were too lazy and didn't have the proper tools that would make fixing small things like that simple and easy. This almost always comes from people who claim they don't need an IDE. If you truly don't need an IDE and can write code that's up to par with people that do have one, that's fine. But most of the time, I just hear excuses of why the code isn't clean, and I automatically assume that these people just don't care about their work at all because they're not even interested in tools that will better their code. Needless to say, I try never to work with them again. EDIT: Other stuff that's often gotten wrong are short variable/function names and spacing.