6 ms·

Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate

Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.

mrb 11y ago
Well let me be the first to disagree with you directly. As a French citizen, I WANT a United States of Europe. I strongly believe that a more politically and legally united Europe is likely to improve overall economic circumstances and quality of life of the average European. Yes this means my taxes being set by a European body, relatively richer countries (like mine) helping poorer countries, etc, but all these things are the right things to do.
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  As an Irish/German I fully agree with you.
cm2187 11y ago
It's only undemocratic because electors do not seem to care who they send to the EU. But MEP are elected, and the officials that are not elected are nominated by elected officials. I think the only viable EU is a United States of Europe, in which the current countries disappear, and you only have a Federal state and what is currently regions in the current countries. Whether a EU is desirable for the UK is another debate. The UK is one of the rare capitalist countries in Europe while pretty much all the other countries are social-democrat if not outright socialist countries, with the high unemployment and low growth associated.
- dogma1138 11y ago
  The European Parliament has no real power. The legislative and executive powers of the union are held by the council of Europe which isn't an elected body.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    The very reason for his is that the national governments of the member states don't have the authority to cede much power to the EU Parliament. Basically there are two ways of making the EU more democratic: Weakening it, or for the citizens of the member nations to explicitly allow their government to cede some degree of sovereignty to the EU Parliament to reduce the need for institutions like the Council by letting the EU Parliament subsume many of the duties.
  - rbehrends 11y ago
    > The European Parliament has no real power. The European Parliament elects the European Commission and can force its resignation through a vote of no confidence (the latter happened to the Santer Commission). Jean-Claude Juncker technically has more democratic legitimacy than David Cameron; he was elected by a number of representatives standing for a majority of the electorate. Practically all EU legislation requires a majority in the European Parliament and a qualified majority in the Council of the European Union (the upper house of the EU legislature, which represents the democratically elected governments of the member states). The problem is that democratic legitimacy alone does not functioning institutions make. > The legislative and executive powers of the union are held by the council of Europe which isn't an elected body. The Council of Europe [1] is an intergovernmental body that has nothing to do with the EU. If you mean the Council of the European Union, that is (as mentioned above) the upper house of the legislature, but has no executive powers (those lie with the Commission and the member states) and all its members represent the democratically elected governments of the member states. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe
    - dogma1138 11y ago
      Yes i did mean the council of the European Union, but sorry you are completely wrong on everything else. The Parliament has only a say on 1 of the 28 commission members the which is the president and even then it's not elected by them. The president is nominated by the council, and confirmed by the parliament. This is similar to how supreme justices are confirmed by the senate in the US however the EUP has much less power over that confirmation. The rest of the 27 members are appointed directly by the council. You can say that the EU as a whole is actually non-democratic all of the power de-jure and de-facto lies within the council, the council represents the executive branches of the EU members, you can even make an argument that the EU actually undermines the democratic process in other countries as it gives their executive branch a possible legislative power which they do not have directly in their own country. The executive branches set up the council, the council has direct control over the legislative and executive powers of the union which means they can pass laws which might have implications on EU member states (especially if the state has decided to subdue itself to EU law in it's constitution, cough Sweden cough) in a manner that the executive branch of those states would not have agency on.
- megalodon 11y ago
  "Elected", the turnout for the election 2014 was 42.54%. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_...
  - cm2187 11y ago
    That's not great but not dissimilar to a US presidential election. Is the US president not democratically elected?
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  I can't see the UK joining either, which as a non-British European is fine by me. They're only interested in how much profit they can squeeze out of every situation. This kind of insular individualism has no place in a Federal Europe.
  - Timmons 11y ago
    As an English person I believe you are thinking of the whole of the UK as London. Lots of that sort of thing around there, not so much the rest of the place.
    - rorykoehler 11y ago
      Yes, sorry no offense intended. I was talking about the dominant political philosophy. I lived in Liverpool for 7 years so I am fully aware of the real situation in the UK.
      - Timmons 11y ago
        None taken. I feel the same way about that attitude :)
- arethuza 11y ago
  "The UK is one of the rare capitalist countries" I would point at our avowedly socialist NHS and disagree with you there. We're a mixed capitalist/socialist country like pretty much everyone else.
vidarh 11y ago
This is exactly why some people want a United States of Europe: The EU institutions as they stand are giant hacks to try incrementally to forge a union out of sovereign nations, and the governance reflects this in that the governments involved do not have the authority to cede the sovereignty necessary to clean up the hacks without constitutional changes or referendums. Properly done, a reformed EU where these hacks were undone and the requisite sovereignty ceded to the EU parliament to allow for a restructured EU would not need to leave the EU with more power, and could move much of what power the EU holds to the elected parliament and actually make the EU far more accountable to people, even if it involves ceding some sovereignty. There has been a slow and steady move towards this, but there's only so much the member state governments can do via treaties without seeking explicit consent from their electorates, and there's very little public appetite for voting for anything that smells of a unified state, not least because the current EU bureaucracy rightfully is not very trust-inspiring. It's quite the Catch-22.
- louhike 11y ago
  And people are getting more nationalists because of the state of the economy. A more unifed EU would be interesting but a bigchallenge because of the diversity of languages/cultures. I would love to see it happen in my lifetime but I'm not really optimistic.
Kurtz79 11y ago
I do want the United States of Europe. The alternative is the return of walls, nationalisms and wars, which has been the natural state of affairs in Europe for 99.9% of its history (100 years ago the Ministry of Defense was called Ministry of War for a reason). The iteration we have at the moment is far from efficient, far from perfect, far from fair, but it's better than anything that has come before.
- mrweasel 11y ago
  >The alternative is the return of walls, nationalisms and wars No it's not. You can have an EU-lite, where we agree on some things, like free trade, joint projects (like EuroPol). Not having the United States of Europe won't result in war any more than the EU imposing a rule on an non-volunteer country will. If anything the EU has shown that it doesn't work. We can't even agree on helping people fleeing a war zone. Nor are the Eurozone countries in agreement on how to handle financial policies. It's not that the European countries should work together, or strive to have similar laws and rules, but it should be limited to issues like trade and the environment. Things that is beyond the scope of single nations.
kome 11y ago
I want a United States of Europe.
arethuza 11y ago
"Nobody I know wants United States of Europe." I'm a Scot and I do - and I'd rather see the UK part of it as well. I want a democratic EU though - the current structures are undemocratic precisely because they have been designed to please national government rather than the people.

mrb 11y ago

Well let me be the first to disagree with you directly. As a French citizen, I WANT a United States of Europe. I strongly believe that a more politically and legally united Europe is likely to improve overall economic circumstances and quality of life of the average European. Yes this means my taxes being set by a European body, relatively richer countries (like mine) helping poorer countries, etc, but all these things are the right things to do.

rorykoehler 11y ago
As an Irish/German I fully agree with you.

cm2187 11y ago

It's only undemocratic because electors do not seem to care who they send to the EU. But MEP are elected, and the officials that are not elected are nominated by elected officials. I think the only viable EU is a United States of Europe, in which the current countries disappear, and you only have a Federal state and what is currently regions in the current countries. Whether a EU is desirable for the UK is another debate. The UK is one of the rare capitalist countries in Europe while pretty much all the other countries are social-democrat if not outright socialist countries, with the high unemployment and low growth associated.

dogma1138 11y ago
The European Parliament has no real power. The legislative and executive powers of the union are held by the council of Europe which isn't an elected body.
- vidarh 11y ago
  The very reason for his is that the national governments of the member states don't have the authority to cede much power to the EU Parliament. Basically there are two ways of making the EU more democratic: Weakening it, or for the citizens of the member nations to explicitly allow their government to cede some degree of sovereignty to the EU Parliament to reduce the need for institutions like the Council by letting the EU Parliament subsume many of the duties.
- rbehrends 11y ago
  > The European Parliament has no real power. The European Parliament elects the European Commission and can force its resignation through a vote of no confidence (the latter happened to the Santer Commission). Jean-Claude Juncker technically has more democratic legitimacy than David Cameron; he was elected by a number of representatives standing for a majority of the electorate. Practically all EU legislation requires a majority in the European Parliament and a qualified majority in the Council of the European Union (the upper house of the EU legislature, which represents the democratically elected governments of the member states). The problem is that democratic legitimacy alone does not functioning institutions make. > The legislative and executive powers of the union are held by the council of Europe which isn't an elected body. The Council of Europe [1] is an intergovernmental body that has nothing to do with the EU. If you mean the Council of the European Union, that is (as mentioned above) the upper house of the legislature, but has no executive powers (those lie with the Commission and the member states) and all its members represent the democratically elected governments of the member states. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    Yes i did mean the council of the European Union, but sorry you are completely wrong on everything else. The Parliament has only a say on 1 of the 28 commission members the which is the president and even then it's not elected by them. The president is nominated by the council, and confirmed by the parliament. This is similar to how supreme justices are confirmed by the senate in the US however the EUP has much less power over that confirmation. The rest of the 27 members are appointed directly by the council. You can say that the EU as a whole is actually non-democratic all of the power de-jure and de-facto lies within the council, the council represents the executive branches of the EU members, you can even make an argument that the EU actually undermines the democratic process in other countries as it gives their executive branch a possible legislative power which they do not have directly in their own country. The executive branches set up the council, the council has direct control over the legislative and executive powers of the union which means they can pass laws which might have implications on EU member states (especially if the state has decided to subdue itself to EU law in it's constitution, cough Sweden cough) in a manner that the executive branch of those states would not have agency on.
megalodon 11y ago
"Elected", the turnout for the election 2014 was 42.54%. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_...
- cm2187 11y ago
  That's not great but not dissimilar to a US presidential election. Is the US president not democratically elected?
rorykoehler 11y ago
I can't see the UK joining either, which as a non-British European is fine by me. They're only interested in how much profit they can squeeze out of every situation. This kind of insular individualism has no place in a Federal Europe.
- Timmons 11y ago
  As an English person I believe you are thinking of the whole of the UK as London. Lots of that sort of thing around there, not so much the rest of the place.
  - rorykoehler 11y ago
    Yes, sorry no offense intended. I was talking about the dominant political philosophy. I lived in Liverpool for 7 years so I am fully aware of the real situation in the UK.
    - Timmons 11y ago
      None taken. I feel the same way about that attitude :)
arethuza 11y ago
"The UK is one of the rare capitalist countries" I would point at our avowedly socialist NHS and disagree with you there. We're a mixed capitalist/socialist country like pretty much everyone else.

vidarh 11y ago

This is exactly why some people want a United States of Europe: The EU institutions as they stand are giant hacks to try incrementally to forge a union out of sovereign nations, and the governance reflects this in that the governments involved do not have the authority to cede the sovereignty necessary to clean up the hacks without constitutional changes or referendums. Properly done, a reformed EU where these hacks were undone and the requisite sovereignty ceded to the EU parliament to allow for a restructured EU would not need to leave the EU with more power, and could move much of what power the EU holds to the elected parliament and actually make the EU far more accountable to people, even if it involves ceding some sovereignty. There has been a slow and steady move towards this, but there's only so much the member state governments can do via treaties without seeking explicit consent from their electorates, and there's very little public appetite for voting for anything that smells of a unified state, not least because the current EU bureaucracy rightfully is not very trust-inspiring. It's quite the Catch-22.

louhike 11y ago
And people are getting more nationalists because of the state of the economy. A more unifed EU would be interesting but a bigchallenge because of the diversity of languages/cultures. I would love to see it happen in my lifetime but I'm not really optimistic.

Kurtz79 11y ago

I do want the United States of Europe. The alternative is the return of walls, nationalisms and wars, which has been the natural state of affairs in Europe for 99.9% of its history (100 years ago the Ministry of Defense was called Ministry of War for a reason). The iteration we have at the moment is far from efficient, far from perfect, far from fair, but it's better than anything that has come before.

mrweasel 11y ago
>The alternative is the return of walls, nationalisms and wars No it's not. You can have an EU-lite, where we agree on some things, like free trade, joint projects (like EuroPol). Not having the United States of Europe won't result in war any more than the EU imposing a rule on an non-volunteer country will. If anything the EU has shown that it doesn't work. We can't even agree on helping people fleeing a war zone. Nor are the Eurozone countries in agreement on how to handle financial policies. It's not that the European countries should work together, or strive to have similar laws and rules, but it should be limited to issues like trade and the environment. Things that is beyond the scope of single nations.

kome 11y ago

I want a United States of Europe.

arethuza 11y ago

"Nobody I know wants United States of Europe." I'm a Scot and I do - and I'd rather see the UK part of it as well. I want a democratic EU though - the current structures are undemocratic precisely because they have been designed to please national government rather than the people.