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Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). The Roman

Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). The Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Byzantine Empire, British Empire and the USA spring to mind. All large states/empires are a patchwork of previously autonomous bodies, in fact most nation states are also formed in the same way, though of course they later usually manufacture tradition/history in an attempt to seem unique and indivisible.

khuey 11y ago
China, India, and Italy are also great examples.
danielam 11y ago
That is an incredibly superficial treatment of the subject that not only fails to mention that these empire fell, but also some of the relevant reasons why. It also fails to distinguish between the formation of nations and the formation of empires and the processes by which they can and do occur. Furthermore, it trivializes the substance and significance of national identity. National identity is very fundamental and upending it in Europe today, and at the scale of a 28 nation bloc, is virtually impossible, especially by means of the mendacious tactics of would-be statesmen and crypto-imperialists. Mind you, empires are driven by a dominant culture and group. The question then becomes: who would play (or is playing) that role in the EU? When you answer that question, the politics of the EU begin to present themselves in a different light.
- fsloth 11y ago
  "Mind you, empires are driven by a dominant culture and group. The question then becomes: who would play (or is playing) that role in the EU?" I had quite an acidic comment originally about this first but then realized up-to-date political debate is out of context for HN. But yes, to me in light of history this is a huge thing - and is mostly ignored in daily discussion.
- grey-area 11y ago
  That is an incredibly superficial treatment of the subject that not only fails to mention that these empire fell...Furthermore, it trivializes the substance and significance of national identity. All empires fall. National identity is an invention of the 19C, hardly an ever-enduring truth. I'd prefer to think the above comment was succinct, not superficial :) Re upending national identity, if you investigate the list of empires given, you'll see that in fact it is quite possible to meld separate states/cultures into one political state given enough time - for example India in the British empire was a mass of competing principates prior to British rule, and is now a functioning democracy encompassing a huge variety of cultures, languages, religions and on the scale of Europe what you might call nations. The German empire was a similar patchwork prior to unification in 1871. The Ottoman or Roman empires are also good examples of this. Your hostility to the EU project seems to make you want to declare it impossible, and perhaps it is flawed, but it's clearly not impossible, or even very unusual, to subsume existing states into something bigger. The morality or desirability of it is an entirely separate question.
ariwilson 11y ago
For the purposes of determining if a United States of Europe is viable, I think the US is not necessarily a great example. After all, it took two devastating wars (the Civil War and WW2) to truly centralize federal power / exhibit great power organization in the way it does today.
- fsloth 11y ago
  United States was also intentionally grown over centuries, mostly as a single polity. Systems design is hard - takes time, takes effort to fix any bugs. US might be one the most painstakingly designed/constructed systems in the modern times. China figured their system out when the pyramids were built and has basically been ruled using the same principles ever since. The thing is, these things take time because they require a cultural context where the motivations and the dynamic of the people can be understood and made to cooperate. These time and culture aspects make the concept of the united states of europe feel quite fantastical.

khuey 11y ago

China, India, and Italy are also great examples.

danielam 11y ago

That is an incredibly superficial treatment of the subject that not only fails to mention that these empire fell, but also some of the relevant reasons why. It also fails to distinguish between the formation of nations and the formation of empires and the processes by which they can and do occur. Furthermore, it trivializes the substance and significance of national identity. National identity is very fundamental and upending it in Europe today, and at the scale of a 28 nation bloc, is virtually impossible, especially by means of the mendacious tactics of would-be statesmen and crypto-imperialists. Mind you, empires are driven by a dominant culture and group. The question then becomes: who would play (or is playing) that role in the EU? When you answer that question, the politics of the EU begin to present themselves in a different light.

fsloth 11y ago
"Mind you, empires are driven by a dominant culture and group. The question then becomes: who would play (or is playing) that role in the EU?" I had quite an acidic comment originally about this first but then realized up-to-date political debate is out of context for HN. But yes, to me in light of history this is a huge thing - and is mostly ignored in daily discussion.
grey-area 11y ago
That is an incredibly superficial treatment of the subject that not only fails to mention that these empire fell...Furthermore, it trivializes the substance and significance of national identity. All empires fall. National identity is an invention of the 19C, hardly an ever-enduring truth. I'd prefer to think the above comment was succinct, not superficial :) Re upending national identity, if you investigate the list of empires given, you'll see that in fact it is quite possible to meld separate states/cultures into one political state given enough time - for example India in the British empire was a mass of competing principates prior to British rule, and is now a functioning democracy encompassing a huge variety of cultures, languages, religions and on the scale of Europe what you might call nations. The German empire was a similar patchwork prior to unification in 1871. The Ottoman or Roman empires are also good examples of this. Your hostility to the EU project seems to make you want to declare it impossible, and perhaps it is flawed, but it's clearly not impossible, or even very unusual, to subsume existing states into something bigger. The morality or desirability of it is an entirely separate question.

ariwilson 11y ago

For the purposes of determining if a United States of Europe is viable, I think the US is not necessarily a great example. After all, it took two devastating wars (the Civil War and WW2) to truly centralize federal power / exhibit great power organization in the way it does today.

fsloth 11y ago
United States was also intentionally grown over centuries, mostly as a single polity. Systems design is hard - takes time, takes effort to fix any bugs. US might be one the most painstakingly designed/constructed systems in the modern times. China figured their system out when the pyramids were built and has basically been ruled using the same principles ever since. The thing is, these things take time because they require a cultural context where the motivations and the dynamic of the people can be understood and made to cooperate. These time and culture aspects make the concept of the united states of europe feel quite fantastical.