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The answer to this question is really simple. It's not complicated at all. Allow me to explain. Finance has abstracted economics from the real world into mathe

The answer to this question is really simple. It's not complicated at all. Allow me to explain. Finance has abstracted economics from the real world into mathematical magic. People get into these complicated debates about concepts, acronyms, abstractions and GDP, when the reality is right in front of your face. Think about it: In what reality can economic growth continue indefinitely into infinity? In what reality is there an unlimited supply of goods to satisfy boundless demand? Let me say unequivocally the answer to the question: can economic growth last? NO.

Retra 11y ago
Economic value is not tied solely to natural resources. It is tied to abstractions. Economic growth is itself an abstraction. Most of the value that's produced in the world is a matter of language. Overcoming barriers to communication. That's not a finite resource, and we're nowhere near saturated in our ability to grow in this area.
Mikeb85 11y ago
> In what reality can economic growth continue indefinitely into infinity? In what reality is there an unlimited supply of goods to satisfy boundless demand? There doesn't need to be an unlimited supply of anything except economic activity. Economic activity is defined more or less as any exchange of goods and services (including labour). If I decide to go to the pub and recite poetry, and someone decides to give me money for reciting poetry, we have economic activity. Another example. Take a brand new model year 2015 automobile, and contrast to a 2014 model with the same badge. The 2015 will be priced higher. Why? Because we assume it's better - more technology, maybe more features. Even if both have never been driven off the lot. Another poster made the comparison between a 2010 and 2015 iPhone. Even if both are in the original packaging, there will be a price difference. It's in this way that technology is factored in to economic growth. In the future, as long as technology increases (which it likely will), even if the output of raw material decreases, even if we don't pull out as many resources, economic activity can still increase in value. > Finance has abstracted economics from the real world into mathematical magic. To a certain degree, yes. Much like computing has abstracted transistors and electronic circuits into something that allows us to write plain English into an abstraction (HTML and such) that's interpreted through another abstraction (browser) that's implemented on top of another abstraction (OS) that's implemented with another abstraction (compiled language) over a language (assembly) that's a nicer façade over what the hardware actually interprets (machine language). The language of Economics allows us to quantify what happens in the real world, and create abstractions to allow us to make sense of how it all works.
- crimsonalucard 11y ago
  Buddy, abstractions aren't magic built on top of thin air. Abstractions can be built upon abstraction and can be built upon other abstractions but when you follow the supply chain all the way down to the logical conclusion you will hit a physical road block grounded in reality. Eventually there will be an abstraction that must be built on top of a concrete primitive. What is this primitive thing at the end of the chain? Energy and material. Think about it. Your poet, in order to have the luxury of writing poetry instead of foraging for food must have physical requirements to assist in his writing of poetry. He must eat food, he must have shelter and materials to support his endeavor. When you give money away for poetry you are giving money away for concrete things. You are paying for his food, you are paying for his shelter, you are paying for his leisure time to allow him to practice his poetry. Food comes from plants, plants can only grow with sunlight... aka energy. Eventually the chain must end at a physical primitive. Lets talk about a hypothetical island economy with a population of two people. Let's say these two idiots are poets. You cannot have an economy of two poets where both poets pay each other to recite poetry. The poets will eventually die of starvation. It's a mutually recursive abstraction that never ends and is unsustainable; An abstract infinite loop with no primitive at the root. TO fix: put a farmer on the island and have the farmer give food to the two poets in exchange for a recitation. Boom, there's a real economy. An economy of pure abstraction only exists in your imagination and even your imagination needs food for sustenance. So when we talk about economics, when we talk about programming, we are not talking about magical abstractions built upon nothing. We are talking about reality. An economy will always be bounded by the physical limitations of the world because abstractions are built on top of the physical world itself, the two are one and the same thing. Ironically the primitive in economics is the exact same primitive in the programming universe: Energy and material are the same thing as Procedure and State. The philosophical implications are profound. Even crazier is when you follow the chain in the programming universe you will find out that both state and procedure are abstractions on the same thing: Silicon and electricity. What is silicon and electricity? Material and energy. Yes that's right, not only is economics bounded by reality, but so is the world of programming, so is the concept of abstractions.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago

Retra 11y ago

Economic value is not tied solely to natural resources. It is tied to abstractions. Economic growth is itself an abstraction. Most of the value that's produced in the world is a matter of language. Overcoming barriers to communication. That's not a finite resource, and we're nowhere near saturated in our ability to grow in this area.

Mikeb85 11y ago

> In what reality can economic growth continue indefinitely into infinity? In what reality is there an unlimited supply of goods to satisfy boundless demand? There doesn't need to be an unlimited supply of anything except economic activity. Economic activity is defined more or less as any exchange of goods and services (including labour). If I decide to go to the pub and recite poetry, and someone decides to give me money for reciting poetry, we have economic activity. Another example. Take a brand new model year 2015 automobile, and contrast to a 2014 model with the same badge. The 2015 will be priced higher. Why? Because we assume it's better - more technology, maybe more features. Even if both have never been driven off the lot. Another poster made the comparison between a 2010 and 2015 iPhone. Even if both are in the original packaging, there will be a price difference. It's in this way that technology is factored in to economic growth. In the future, as long as technology increases (which it likely will), even if the output of raw material decreases, even if we don't pull out as many resources, economic activity can still increase in value. > Finance has abstracted economics from the real world into mathematical magic. To a certain degree, yes. Much like computing has abstracted transistors and electronic circuits into something that allows us to write plain English into an abstraction (HTML and such) that's interpreted through another abstraction (browser) that's implemented on top of another abstraction (OS) that's implemented with another abstraction (compiled language) over a language (assembly) that's a nicer façade over what the hardware actually interprets (machine language). The language of Economics allows us to quantify what happens in the real world, and create abstractions to allow us to make sense of how it all works.

crimsonalucard 11y ago
Buddy, abstractions aren't magic built on top of thin air. Abstractions can be built upon abstraction and can be built upon other abstractions but when you follow the supply chain all the way down to the logical conclusion you will hit a physical road block grounded in reality. Eventually there will be an abstraction that must be built on top of a concrete primitive. What is this primitive thing at the end of the chain? Energy and material. Think about it. Your poet, in order to have the luxury of writing poetry instead of foraging for food must have physical requirements to assist in his writing of poetry. He must eat food, he must have shelter and materials to support his endeavor. When you give money away for poetry you are giving money away for concrete things. You are paying for his food, you are paying for his shelter, you are paying for his leisure time to allow him to practice his poetry. Food comes from plants, plants can only grow with sunlight... aka energy. Eventually the chain must end at a physical primitive. Lets talk about a hypothetical island economy with a population of two people. Let's say these two idiots are poets. You cannot have an economy of two poets where both poets pay each other to recite poetry. The poets will eventually die of starvation. It's a mutually recursive abstraction that never ends and is unsustainable; An abstract infinite loop with no primitive at the root. TO fix: put a farmer on the island and have the farmer give food to the two poets in exchange for a recitation. Boom, there's a real economy. An economy of pure abstraction only exists in your imagination and even your imagination needs food for sustenance. So when we talk about economics, when we talk about programming, we are not talking about magical abstractions built upon nothing. We are talking about reality. An economy will always be bounded by the physical limitations of the world because abstractions are built on top of the physical world itself, the two are one and the same thing. Ironically the primitive in economics is the exact same primitive in the programming universe: Energy and material are the same thing as Procedure and State. The philosophical implications are profound. Even crazier is when you follow the chain in the programming universe you will find out that both state and procedure are abstractions on the same thing: Silicon and electricity. What is silicon and electricity? Material and energy. Yes that's right, not only is economics bounded by reality, but so is the world of programming, so is the concept of abstractions.
- Mikeb85 11y ago