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I did actually have a scroll through that gov tool for comparison yesterday and 90%+ graduation rates were extremely common, even for the highest echelon of US

I did actually have a scroll through that gov tool for comparison yesterday and 90%+ graduation rates were extremely common, even for the highest echelon of US universities. How are these not degree mills?

douche 11y ago
We've made the college diploma the equivalent of the high school diploma - it's become the minimum bar for many jobs, even when it's not remotely useful. Outside of a few fields, if you want to escape low-paying, part-time service industry work, you've got to have that piece of paper. And a lot of institutions are happy to give it to you, if you (or your parents, or private lenders, or the government) are willing to fork over $50,000-$200,000.
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
So you're saying that a proper university fails some amount of students who understand the material in order to acquire prestige from the appearance of stringency? Or that a double-digit percentage of admitted students are, for some reason, incompetent?
- revelation 11y ago
  No, I'm saying a good university makes a large-ish proportion of students realize that this isn't what they signed up for.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - Riseed 11y ago
    I posit that a good university has an ethical admissions office, and an ethical admissions office helps students realize this isn't want they signed up for before they get to the "signed up for" part.
  - CydeWeys 11y ago
    Why do you think that a good university should necessarily be incompetent at telling students what they're in for? That they have to pull bait-and-switches? I knew exactly what I was getting into at my university.
  - plonh 11y ago
    University teaches a lot of very expensive lessons. Ideally his is not one of them.
thedufer 11y ago
The top universities can afford to be selective enough that you'd expect most of their students to graduate. The schools being labeled degree mills have similar grad rates, but are teaching average or below average students rather than the top few percent.
ranman 11y ago
The top universities are much more incentivized for you to succeed because they've already invested in you. Comparing friends who went to state schools and never got extensions or mental health help to friends who went to Ivy League schools and finished projects for some classes a year late... It's a little ridiculous how much "help" or outright cheating happens at higher tier schools.
- tedunangst 11y ago
  I don't know if this division actually works, but one might separate colleges by how much a student is worth to them before and after graduating. I assume degree mills receive exactly zero from graduates. Ivy schools sometimes receive enormous gifts from graduates, often decades after they graduate. It is in the school's financial interest to keep standards high, in order to continue collecting checks from the class of 1950. Tuition is almost just a down payment on a lifetime of giving.
  - plonh 11y ago
    Standards are not correlated to giving. Unless you mean football standards, or elite breeding standards.
jlarocco 11y ago
The term "degree mill" refers to unaccredited for-profit college with low standards and almost worthless degrees. It has nothing to do with graduation rates. As far as regular universities go, the high graduation rate isn't surprising. Only a complete idiot would go through the hassle of getting in, then pay massive amounts of money and spend several years studying, and then give up empty handed. Only people in the most dire of circumstances drop out of college. Most people change majors to something easier, or they keep trying until they get it.
- 67726e 11y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't degree mills typical still accredited? I thought the process was they acquire already accredited institutions and rebrand them.
  - jlarocco 11y ago
    > Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't degree mills typical still accredited? No, not really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_mill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_mill > I thought the process was they acquire already accredited institutions and rebrand them. I guess it's possible, but I've never heard of that happening.
    - 67726e 11y ago
      Do you have any real numbers or other info on "degree mills"? My understanding was that the term applied to University of Phoenix type schools, which are still accredited.
- jonesb6 11y ago
  Please don't over generalize those of us who did indeed leave college without a degree. People do it for a large number of reasons, some of which are good and some of which are bad. In most circumstances this does not reflect on their intelligence.

douche 11y ago

We've made the college diploma the equivalent of the high school diploma - it's become the minimum bar for many jobs, even when it's not remotely useful. Outside of a few fields, if you want to escape low-paying, part-time service industry work, you've got to have that piece of paper. And a lot of institutions are happy to give it to you, if you (or your parents, or private lenders, or the government) are willing to fork over $50,000-$200,000.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago

So you're saying that a proper university fails some amount of students who understand the material in order to acquire prestige from the appearance of stringency? Or that a double-digit percentage of admitted students are, for some reason, incompetent?

revelation 11y ago
No, I'm saying a good university makes a large-ish proportion of students realize that this isn't what they signed up for.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Riseed 11y ago
  I posit that a good university has an ethical admissions office, and an ethical admissions office helps students realize this isn't want they signed up for before they get to the "signed up for" part.
- CydeWeys 11y ago
  Why do you think that a good university should necessarily be incompetent at telling students what they're in for? That they have to pull bait-and-switches? I knew exactly what I was getting into at my university.
- plonh 11y ago
  University teaches a lot of very expensive lessons. Ideally his is not one of them.

thedufer 11y ago

The top universities can afford to be selective enough that you'd expect most of their students to graduate. The schools being labeled degree mills have similar grad rates, but are teaching average or below average students rather than the top few percent.

ranman 11y ago

The top universities are much more incentivized for you to succeed because they've already invested in you. Comparing friends who went to state schools and never got extensions or mental health help to friends who went to Ivy League schools and finished projects for some classes a year late... It's a little ridiculous how much "help" or outright cheating happens at higher tier schools.

tedunangst 11y ago
I don't know if this division actually works, but one might separate colleges by how much a student is worth to them before and after graduating. I assume degree mills receive exactly zero from graduates. Ivy schools sometimes receive enormous gifts from graduates, often decades after they graduate. It is in the school's financial interest to keep standards high, in order to continue collecting checks from the class of 1950. Tuition is almost just a down payment on a lifetime of giving.
- plonh 11y ago
  Standards are not correlated to giving. Unless you mean football standards, or elite breeding standards.

jlarocco 11y ago

The term "degree mill" refers to unaccredited for-profit college with low standards and almost worthless degrees. It has nothing to do with graduation rates. As far as regular universities go, the high graduation rate isn't surprising. Only a complete idiot would go through the hassle of getting in, then pay massive amounts of money and spend several years studying, and then give up empty handed. Only people in the most dire of circumstances drop out of college. Most people change majors to something easier, or they keep trying until they get it.

67726e 11y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't degree mills typical still accredited? I thought the process was they acquire already accredited institutions and rebrand them.
- jlarocco 11y ago
  > Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't degree mills typical still accredited? No, not really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_mill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accreditation_mill > I thought the process was they acquire already accredited institutions and rebrand them. I guess it's possible, but I've never heard of that happening.
  - 67726e 11y ago
    Do you have any real numbers or other info on "degree mills"? My understanding was that the term applied to University of Phoenix type schools, which are still accredited.
jonesb6 11y ago
Please don't over generalize those of us who did indeed leave college without a degree. People do it for a large number of reasons, some of which are good and some of which are bad. In most circumstances this does not reflect on their intelligence.