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> Are you suggesting there is literally no way to check these things? I think there is some way to check, but why would anybody do it? Let's imagine that you w

> Are you suggesting there is literally no way to check these things? I think there is some way to check, but why would anybody do it? Let's imagine that you work for Alcor as a technician and you find out that due to some refrigerator malfunction, dead bodies temporary unthawed. Would you publicly report the incident or would keep silently collect your salary? > if they don't do as they claim, They claim to keep dead bodies frozen. > they are hugely financially liable Liable to what exactly? > do you think they would have been able to hide massive fraud for all this time? Of course. Consider Bernie Madoff's Ponzy scheme. Alcor Life has much smaller revenue in comparison. > convince you that it's not a scam? Successful revival. Do you know any technology that worked without successful tests of that technology? E.g. they create microprocessor and claim that it works inside, but never tested it. What are the chances that this untested microprocessor would work?

edanm 11y ago
So, regarding failures, they're actually pretty well documented. See g.. here: http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/suspensionfailures.html http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/suspensionfailures.html. First result from a google search. Not exactly some giant coverup and fraud, I think. "> they are hugely financially liable Liable to what exactly?" Well, the original point made above is that there is no way to verify they do as they claim, which is to freeze bodies/heads, in the hopes that someday in the future someone will know how to do something with it. I'm assuming that if they don't actually freeze the bodies as they say, they are committing fraud. That's what the discussion was about. That's what I meant by "liable". "[What would it take to] > convince you that it's not a scam? Successful revival." Well, since no one is claiming that a successful revival is possible now, or even that a successful revival will be possible sometime in the future, I don't think that's a fair thing to demand. Again, as long as they're clearly explaining the idea behind this, as long as they're not trying to trick anyone by promising something that doesn't exist, which they aren't, then I don't think it's fair to call it a scam. I just find it a little sad that, at least as far as I can tell, most of the people involved in this are people who really believe in the mission. They're not lying, not misleading people, giving all the facts, and yet, everyone just assumes it's a fraud or a scam.
- dennisgorelik 11y ago
  1) How do you know that all body freezing failures are pretty well documented? If they do not test recovery then they register only the most obvious failures. 2) "in the hopes that someday in the future someone will know" They promote and claim that revival will be possible in the future. Without any proof. So it is a confidence game. Hence "scam". There is a good chance that successful freezing and revival would be possible in the future. But it is very unlikely that revival of dead bodies that Alcor is freezing today would ever be possible. > most of the people involved in this are people who really believe in the mission You can say the same about any established religion. > They're not lying, not misleading people, Sorry, internal belief is not a guarantee that the statements are true and not misleading.
  - deciplex 11y ago
    You seem to be suggesting that cryonics will remain a scam until such time that vitrified brains can be recovered. But, by that time cryonics would likely be unnecessary. Is there a use case for cryonics at all?
    - dennisgorelik 11y ago
      If somebody wants to travel to the future - cryonics could be helpful (assuming it actually works). It also may make sense to use cryonics for future cure of deceases, assuming that cryonics work. But now we should assume that cryonics does NOT work, and everyone who claims (or hints) otherwise without testing is a scammer.
  - edanm 11y ago
    "They promote and claim that revival will be possible in the future. Without any proof. So it is a confidence game. Hence "scam"." Again, if you're talking about some group like Alcor, they say it may be possible in the future. I'd love it if you could provide some kind of evidence that they're not presenting the truth or trying to dupe people. Especially considering that so few people have actually signed up, so I'm guessing most people who sign up do it after a lot of research.

edanm 11y ago

So, regarding failures, they're actually pretty well documented. See g.. here: http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/suspensionfailures.html http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/suspensionfailures.html. First result from a google search. Not exactly some giant coverup and fraud, I think. "> they are hugely financially liable Liable to what exactly?" Well, the original point made above is that there is no way to verify they do as they claim, which is to freeze bodies/heads, in the hopes that someday in the future someone will know how to do something with it. I'm assuming that if they don't actually freeze the bodies as they say, they are committing fraud. That's what the discussion was about. That's what I meant by "liable". "[What would it take to] > convince you that it's not a scam? Successful revival." Well, since no one is claiming that a successful revival is possible now, or even that a successful revival will be possible sometime in the future, I don't think that's a fair thing to demand. Again, as long as they're clearly explaining the idea behind this, as long as they're not trying to trick anyone by promising something that doesn't exist, which they aren't, then I don't think it's fair to call it a scam. I just find it a little sad that, at least as far as I can tell, most of the people involved in this are people who really believe in the mission. They're not lying, not misleading people, giving all the facts, and yet, everyone just assumes it's a fraud or a scam.

dennisgorelik 11y ago
1) How do you know that all body freezing failures are pretty well documented? If they do not test recovery then they register only the most obvious failures. 2) "in the hopes that someday in the future someone will know" They promote and claim that revival will be possible in the future. Without any proof. So it is a confidence game. Hence "scam". There is a good chance that successful freezing and revival would be possible in the future. But it is very unlikely that revival of dead bodies that Alcor is freezing today would ever be possible. > most of the people involved in this are people who really believe in the mission You can say the same about any established religion. > They're not lying, not misleading people, Sorry, internal belief is not a guarantee that the statements are true and not misleading.
- deciplex 11y ago
  You seem to be suggesting that cryonics will remain a scam until such time that vitrified brains can be recovered. But, by that time cryonics would likely be unnecessary. Is there a use case for cryonics at all?
  - dennisgorelik 11y ago
    If somebody wants to travel to the future - cryonics could be helpful (assuming it actually works). It also may make sense to use cryonics for future cure of deceases, assuming that cryonics work. But now we should assume that cryonics does NOT work, and everyone who claims (or hints) otherwise without testing is a scammer.
- edanm 11y ago
  "They promote and claim that revival will be possible in the future. Without any proof. So it is a confidence game. Hence "scam"." Again, if you're talking about some group like Alcor, they say it may be possible in the future. I'd love it if you could provide some kind of evidence that they're not presenting the truth or trying to dupe people. Especially considering that so few people have actually signed up, so I'm guessing most people who sign up do it after a lot of research.