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We don't even listen to their message (which is usually "hey, leave us alone pls, kthnxboom") People do not blow up buildings, crash airliners, and wreck passe

We don't even listen to their message (which is usually "hey, leave us alone pls, kthnxboom") People do not blow up buildings, crash airliners, and wreck passenger trains because they want to be left alone. They do these things because they want to be feared, or barring that, paid attention to.

latortuga 17y ago
Or potentially because Islam calls for killing of infidels. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. I suppose this is a subset of being feared (believe or you deserve to die) but I think it's worth highlighting.
- ynniv 17y ago
  Don't tell me that Islam calls for killing of infidels unless you're ready to admit that Christianity and Judaism do as well. The only reason you can say that with a straight face is that you don't know any Muslims well enough to know that Islam is only marginally different from any other mainstream religion. What you are revealing is a cultural/political/modernist bias that pretends an obscure belief is universal simply because it is foreign. You might as well paint half the population red, the other blue, and fight for the future of mankind. I prefer to recognize that people painted red or blue are still more similar than different.
  - ynniv 17y ago
    That wasn't as cool-headed as it maybe could have been... Now that I can't change it, I suppose it at least it has a sound base.
  - pmorici 17y ago
    Not all part of all books get the same amount of attention. My grade school math teacher skipped chapter 7 because she didn't think it was worth the time. If we had devoted time to that it may have changed my whole disposition.
  - spc476 17y ago
    The only call to killing non-believers in the Old Testament (Jewish religion) is Leviticus 24:16 (King James translation), "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." One other passage, Exodus 22:18 ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") may be construed as such, but there's some controversy over the term "witch"---the original Hewbrew word also means "poisoner". In the New Testament (Christianity) there isn't a clear cut statement about killing the unbeliever. There is Matthew 1:34, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" and Luke 22:36, "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" but no direct commandment to otherwise kill the unbeliever. In the Koran, I found three passages that directly state the killing of unbelievers (translation by Mohammad Habib Shakir): 2.191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. 4.98 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. 4.91 You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority. And one passage about killing those that wage war against Islam: 5.33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, I only looked for passages that directly stated it was okay to kill unbelievers; I did not look for mor subtle passages that implied such. If you think I'm being unfair here, please point out any other passages from The Old Testament or New Testament that I may have missed.
  - jacoblyles 17y ago
    Culturally, the Christian world seems to have given up its war against the infidels a few hundred years ago (today, it is even close to giving up Christianity). While hostility towards outsiders may not be a necessary part of Muslim belief, it does seem to be ingrained in at least a substantial part of current Islamic culture. The Crusades are an off-mentioned bugbear on the lips of moral relativists, and of course the Bible claims that the Hebrews drove out pagan tribes from the land of Cainaan. But in my opinion we ought to weight recent killings in the name of God slightly higher than those which occurred five hundred or three thousand years ago. I could be wrong and biased because of the media I consume. Could you point me to a recent news story about a Christian or Jewish suicide bomber?
narag 17y ago
Are you intentionally misunderstanding? It's very clear what the person you're responding to meant. Of course the message is delivered in a way that begs attention. But the message is "leave us alone."
- mnemonicsloth 17y ago
  But the message is "leave us alone." Meaning what? Stop satellite broadcasts of Baywatch? Stop consuming oil? Change our minds about Israel's right to exist? Decide that honor killing isn't so bad? Al Qaeda have already shown they are cynical enough to employ teenagers as suicide bombers, mosques as headquarters, hospitals as munitions dumps. Waging war against the Great Satan makes them a headline act on the global stage. They've probably even figured out a way to get paid for it. Isn't it possible that the Al Qaeda leadership -- who let others take on the suicide missions -- just like this state of affairs? Is it so hard to believe that their narrative of grievance and justification is self-serving, and exists primarily to help them recruit more ammunition?

latortuga 17y ago

Or potentially because Islam calls for killing of infidels. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. I suppose this is a subset of being feared (believe or you deserve to die) but I think it's worth highlighting.

ynniv 17y ago
Don't tell me that Islam calls for killing of infidels unless you're ready to admit that Christianity and Judaism do as well. The only reason you can say that with a straight face is that you don't know any Muslims well enough to know that Islam is only marginally different from any other mainstream religion. What you are revealing is a cultural/political/modernist bias that pretends an obscure belief is universal simply because it is foreign. You might as well paint half the population red, the other blue, and fight for the future of mankind. I prefer to recognize that people painted red or blue are still more similar than different.
- ynniv 17y ago
  That wasn't as cool-headed as it maybe could have been... Now that I can't change it, I suppose it at least it has a sound base.
- pmorici 17y ago
  Not all part of all books get the same amount of attention. My grade school math teacher skipped chapter 7 because she didn't think it was worth the time. If we had devoted time to that it may have changed my whole disposition.
- spc476 17y ago
  The only call to killing non-believers in the Old Testament (Jewish religion) is Leviticus 24:16 (King James translation), "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." One other passage, Exodus 22:18 ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") may be construed as such, but there's some controversy over the term "witch"---the original Hewbrew word also means "poisoner". In the New Testament (Christianity) there isn't a clear cut statement about killing the unbeliever. There is Matthew 1:34, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" and Luke 22:36, "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" but no direct commandment to otherwise kill the unbeliever. In the Koran, I found three passages that directly state the killing of unbelievers (translation by Mohammad Habib Shakir): 2.191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. 4.98 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. 4.91 You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority. And one passage about killing those that wage war against Islam: 5.33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, I only looked for passages that directly stated it was okay to kill unbelievers; I did not look for mor subtle passages that implied such. If you think I'm being unfair here, please point out any other passages from The Old Testament or New Testament that I may have missed.
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  Culturally, the Christian world seems to have given up its war against the infidels a few hundred years ago (today, it is even close to giving up Christianity). While hostility towards outsiders may not be a necessary part of Muslim belief, it does seem to be ingrained in at least a substantial part of current Islamic culture. The Crusades are an off-mentioned bugbear on the lips of moral relativists, and of course the Bible claims that the Hebrews drove out pagan tribes from the land of Cainaan. But in my opinion we ought to weight recent killings in the name of God slightly higher than those which occurred five hundred or three thousand years ago. I could be wrong and biased because of the media I consume. Could you point me to a recent news story about a Christian or Jewish suicide bomber?

narag 17y ago

Are you intentionally misunderstanding? It's very clear what the person you're responding to meant. Of course the message is delivered in a way that begs attention. But the message is "leave us alone."

mnemonicsloth 17y ago
But the message is "leave us alone." Meaning what? Stop satellite broadcasts of Baywatch? Stop consuming oil? Change our minds about Israel's right to exist? Decide that honor killing isn't so bad? Al Qaeda have already shown they are cynical enough to employ teenagers as suicide bombers, mosques as headquarters, hospitals as munitions dumps. Waging war against the Great Satan makes them a headline act on the global stage. They've probably even figured out a way to get paid for it. Isn't it possible that the Al Qaeda leadership -- who let others take on the suicide missions -- just like this state of affairs? Is it so hard to believe that their narrative of grievance and justification is self-serving, and exists primarily to help them recruit more ammunition?