3 ms·

What exactly would you be able to verify? That some dead brains are frozen at the moment?

edanm 11y ago
Well, yes. That would invalidate the whole idea of "they're not even interested in actually preserving anyone". You could verify other things too, but unfortunately, considering it's cryonics, there's not much you can verify except for the authenticity of the effort (e.g. you can't verify effectiveness of the effort since no one really knows).
- dennisgorelik 11y ago
  If I run a scientific scam, keeping dead brains frozen for the show is an obvious thing to do. It would be like a relic[1]. I'd add some testaments to it with untestable claims. You know, the usual. The main difference between Cryonics and more established religions is that Cryonics is an unproven sect. Major religions survived and polished their traditions for hundreds or thousands of years. Cryonics movement is younger than Scientology[2] --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology
  - edanm 11y ago
    Are you suggesting there is literally no way to check these things? Remember, this is a company that enters into a contract with you, if they don't do as they claim, they are hugely financially liable. They've been around for longer than many other companies, do you think they would have been able to hide massive fraud for all this time? AFAIK, we're not talking about some "faith-healer" off in a corner somewhere, we're talking about an actually company, with facilities, doctors, etc. I imagine with open books as well, though I'm not sure. Let me ask it the other way around - what would it take, theoretically, to convince you that it's not a scam? At least not in the way you are claiming (which is that they're not really preserving brains/bodies)?
    - dennisgorelik 11y ago
      > Are you suggesting there is literally no way to check these things? I think there is some way to check, but why would anybody do it? Let's imagine that you work for Alcor as a technician and you find out that due to some refrigerator malfunction, dead bodies temporary unthawed. Would you publicly report the incident or would keep silently collect your salary? > if they don't do as they claim, They claim to keep dead bodies frozen. > they are hugely financially liable Liable to what exactly? > do you think they would have been able to hide massive fraud for all this time? Of course. Consider Bernie Madoff's Ponzy scheme. Alcor Life has much smaller revenue in comparison. > convince you that it's not a scam? Successful revival. Do you know any technology that worked without successful tests of that technology? E.g. they create microprocessor and claim that it works inside, but never tested it. What are the chances that this untested microprocessor would work?
      - edanm 11y ago
        So, regarding failures, they're actually pretty well documented. See g.. here: http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/suspensionfailures.html http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/suspensionfailures.html. First result from a google search. Not exactly some giant coverup and fraud, I think. "> they are hugely financially liable Liable to what exactly?" Well, the original point made above is that there is no way to verify they do as they claim, which is to freeze bodies/heads, in the hopes that someday in the future someone will know how to do something with it. I'm assuming that if they don't actually freeze the bodies as they say, they are committing fraud. That's what the discussion was about. That's what I meant by "liable". "[What would it take to] > convince you that it's not a scam? Successful revival." Well, since no one is claiming that a successful revival is possible now, or even that a successful revival will be possible sometime in the future, I don't think that's a fair thing to demand. Again, as long as they're clearly explaining the idea behind this, as long as they're not trying to trick anyone by promising something that doesn't exist, which they aren't, then I don't think it's fair to call it a scam. I just find it a little sad that, at least as far as I can tell, most of the people involved in this are people who really believe in the mission. They're not lying, not misleading people, giving all the facts, and yet, everyone just assumes it's a fraud or a scam.

edanm 11y ago

Well, yes. That would invalidate the whole idea of "they're not even interested in actually preserving anyone". You could verify other things too, but unfortunately, considering it's cryonics, there's not much you can verify except for the authenticity of the effort (e.g. you can't verify effectiveness of the effort since no one really knows).

dennisgorelik 11y ago
If I run a scientific scam, keeping dead brains frozen for the show is an obvious thing to do. It would be like a relic[1]. I'd add some testaments to it with untestable claims. You know, the usual. The main difference between Cryonics and more established religions is that Cryonics is an unproven sect. Major religions survived and polished their traditions for hundreds or thousands of years. Cryonics movement is younger than Scientology[2] --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology
- edanm 11y ago
  Are you suggesting there is literally no way to check these things? Remember, this is a company that enters into a contract with you, if they don't do as they claim, they are hugely financially liable. They've been around for longer than many other companies, do you think they would have been able to hide massive fraud for all this time? AFAIK, we're not talking about some "faith-healer" off in a corner somewhere, we're talking about an actually company, with facilities, doctors, etc. I imagine with open books as well, though I'm not sure. Let me ask it the other way around - what would it take, theoretically, to convince you that it's not a scam? At least not in the way you are claiming (which is that they're not really preserving brains/bodies)?
  - dennisgorelik 11y ago
    > Are you suggesting there is literally no way to check these things? I think there is some way to check, but why would anybody do it? Let's imagine that you work for Alcor as a technician and you find out that due to some refrigerator malfunction, dead bodies temporary unthawed. Would you publicly report the incident or would keep silently collect your salary? > if they don't do as they claim, They claim to keep dead bodies frozen. > they are hugely financially liable Liable to what exactly? > do you think they would have been able to hide massive fraud for all this time? Of course. Consider Bernie Madoff's Ponzy scheme. Alcor Life has much smaller revenue in comparison. > convince you that it's not a scam? Successful revival. Do you know any technology that worked without successful tests of that technology? E.g. they create microprocessor and claim that it works inside, but never tested it. What are the chances that this untested microprocessor would work?
    - edanm 11y ago
      So, regarding failures, they're actually pretty well documented. See g.. here: http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/suspensionfailures.html http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/suspensionfailures.html. First result from a google search. Not exactly some giant coverup and fraud, I think. "> they are hugely financially liable Liable to what exactly?" Well, the original point made above is that there is no way to verify they do as they claim, which is to freeze bodies/heads, in the hopes that someday in the future someone will know how to do something with it. I'm assuming that if they don't actually freeze the bodies as they say, they are committing fraud. That's what the discussion was about. That's what I meant by "liable". "[What would it take to] > convince you that it's not a scam? Successful revival." Well, since no one is claiming that a successful revival is possible now, or even that a successful revival will be possible sometime in the future, I don't think that's a fair thing to demand. Again, as long as they're clearly explaining the idea behind this, as long as they're not trying to trick anyone by promising something that doesn't exist, which they aren't, then I don't think it's fair to call it a scam. I just find it a little sad that, at least as far as I can tell, most of the people involved in this are people who really believe in the mission. They're not lying, not misleading people, giving all the facts, and yet, everyone just assumes it's a fraud or a scam.