4 ms·

This looks cool, but if I'm already going to write the HTML and the SQL I'll just write the app. I already have a framework and method to do that anyway and I d

by jqm 11y ago

This looks cool, but if I'm already going to write the HTML and the SQL I'll just write the app. I already have a framework and method to do that anyway and I don't have to learn a new system or be locked to some way of doing things that may prevent customization and expansion. Not to bag on the effort though. This may come in handy for someone.

justintocci 11y ago
I don't understand. What we've done here is replace the web app architecture with a desktop app architecture. Desktop apps don't have customization or expansion problems so I wouldn't expect any here. Could you give me an example?
- jqm 11y ago
  Well, to be fair, I was never fan of Access and do think it has customization and expansion problems. I have never built an app using Access, but I have gone through a few broken Access apps and re-written them into web apps. In my limited experience it allows clicker people to build themselves into trouble while making it difficult for them to fix what they build. Just my opinion though. I'm not complaining because I've made money re-writing some messes and making them functional and beautiful. Dragonwriter's reply (below) sort of sums up my view also. I am not a fan of jamming all the logic in the SQL and like a middle layer... actually need a middle layer to carry out operations on the data before it is presented. I would prefer not to use JS for this. But again.. I'm sure this project has some uses and would be handy for some people. It's a cool idea and a cool project and I commend your effort. It's just not something I personally would chose to use. Please don't take that the wrong way....
  - justintocci 11y ago
    > actually need a middle layer to carry out operations on the data before it is presented. I'm of the school that says you should fetch the data you want because the database is optimized for data operations. can you give me an example of a data operation that's best done in middleware?
    - jqm 11y ago
      Just about anything in which the SQL is considerably more complex or a lot longer than then the corresponding middleware code. Just about anything in which the SQL query is considerably more difficult to debug or get intermediate verification than in the corresponding code. SQL does many things well. So far, it doesn't do everything as well as middleware code. It isn't as easy to use for every use case as middleware code. Long complex SQL queries are a nightmare to unravel. Middleware code can more easily (in my experience) be broken up into smaller steps that can be manipulated and tested independently.
      - justintocci 11y ago
        Postgis is an example of a very extensive code base in Postgres. I've listed a bunch of apps that Envelope is great for. You haven't given me an example of what you are talking about so I can't really respond to your comments.

by jqm 11y ago

justintocci 11y ago

I don't understand. What we've done here is replace the web app architecture with a desktop app architecture. Desktop apps don't have customization or expansion problems so I wouldn't expect any here. Could you give me an example?

jqm 11y ago
Well, to be fair, I was never fan of Access and do think it has customization and expansion problems. I have never built an app using Access, but I have gone through a few broken Access apps and re-written them into web apps. In my limited experience it allows clicker people to build themselves into trouble while making it difficult for them to fix what they build. Just my opinion though. I'm not complaining because I've made money re-writing some messes and making them functional and beautiful. Dragonwriter's reply (below) sort of sums up my view also. I am not a fan of jamming all the logic in the SQL and like a middle layer... actually need a middle layer to carry out operations on the data before it is presented. I would prefer not to use JS for this. But again.. I'm sure this project has some uses and would be handy for some people. It's a cool idea and a cool project and I commend your effort. It's just not something I personally would chose to use. Please don't take that the wrong way....
- justintocci 11y ago
  > actually need a middle layer to carry out operations on the data before it is presented. I'm of the school that says you should fetch the data you want because the database is optimized for data operations. can you give me an example of a data operation that's best done in middleware?
  - jqm 11y ago
    Just about anything in which the SQL is considerably more complex or a lot longer than then the corresponding middleware code. Just about anything in which the SQL query is considerably more difficult to debug or get intermediate verification than in the corresponding code. SQL does many things well. So far, it doesn't do everything as well as middleware code. It isn't as easy to use for every use case as middleware code. Long complex SQL queries are a nightmare to unravel. Middleware code can more easily (in my experience) be broken up into smaller steps that can be manipulated and tested independently.
    - justintocci 11y ago
      Postgis is an example of a very extensive code base in Postgres. I've listed a bunch of apps that Envelope is great for. You haven't given me an example of what you are talking about so I can't really respond to your comments.