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I don't know if software systems are the most complex systems we built, but you can't compare it to the world economy, which is an emergent property that nobody

I don't know if software systems are the most complex systems we built, but you can't compare it to the world economy, which is an emergent property that nobody has "built".

Turing_Machine 11y ago
It's composed of the individual actions of human beings, so yes, it was built. It certainly isn't a natural phenomenon. "Emergence" doesn't have any bearing on it. The properties of music and art are emergent, too. Doesn't make them not constructed by humans.
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  The economy is emergent in ways that art and music are not.
- toothbrush 11y ago
  The difference is intensional or extensional behaviour.
- danmaz74 11y ago
  > It certainly isn't a natural phenomenon. Now, this is interesting. You mean that we humans aren't a natural phenomenon? :D
  - Turing_Machine 11y ago
    nat·u·ral ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/ adjective 1. existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind. Humans are natural. Human artifacts are not.
    - techbio 11y ago
      Mom's tomato garden?
      - boomlinde 11y ago
        Not that I necessarily agree with the distinction made in the definition above, but assuming it's true, wouldn't the garden be an artifact? The soil and the tomatoes surely not, but the garden in layout and concept would be a human built thing.
superuser2 11y ago
The ideas of personal property and wage labor are certainly not emergent properties of the universe. We could just as easily have chosen collective ownership with equal distribution of the fruits of socially compelled labor, trial by combat to see who gets the most stuff, serfs being fed by their masters who effectively own them, everyone feeding himself directly from the land which is owned by no one, everyone feeding himself directly from the land which was cleared of competitors by deliberate genocide, etc. All have been practiced at one point or another. An economy based on property ownership, investment, and labor is absolutely a system created by humanity, though you could argue many of its observed properties are emergent.
- danmaz74 11y ago
  The key in my comment is the difference between "built" (as in: purposefully designed and built, like it happens with software) and "created" (as in: you can accidentally create something). But I know that human language isn't so well defined and other people can give different meanings to those terms... because nobody "built" English! Regarding "We could just as easily have chosen" I don't agree at all on "easily". Contrary to many theories which say or imply that, people's minds aren't blank slates that can be easily programmed (not to mention re-programmed) to adapt to any social engineering project. Countless examples in history prove this.

I don't know if software systems are the most complex systems we built, but you can't compare it to the world economy, which is an emergent property that nobody has "built".

Turing_Machine 11y ago

It's composed of the individual actions of human beings, so yes, it was built. It certainly isn't a natural phenomenon. "Emergence" doesn't have any bearing on it. The properties of music and art are emergent, too. Doesn't make them not constructed by humans.

ArkyBeagle 11y ago
The economy is emergent in ways that art and music are not.
toothbrush 11y ago
The difference is intensional or extensional behaviour.
danmaz74 11y ago
> It certainly isn't a natural phenomenon. Now, this is interesting. You mean that we humans aren't a natural phenomenon? :D
- Turing_Machine 11y ago
  nat·u·ral ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/ adjective 1. existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind. Humans are natural. Human artifacts are not.
  - techbio 11y ago
    Mom's tomato garden?
    - boomlinde 11y ago
      Not that I necessarily agree with the distinction made in the definition above, but assuming it's true, wouldn't the garden be an artifact? The soil and the tomatoes surely not, but the garden in layout and concept would be a human built thing.

superuser2 11y ago

The ideas of personal property and wage labor are certainly not emergent properties of the universe. We could just as easily have chosen collective ownership with equal distribution of the fruits of socially compelled labor, trial by combat to see who gets the most stuff, serfs being fed by their masters who effectively own them, everyone feeding himself directly from the land which is owned by no one, everyone feeding himself directly from the land which was cleared of competitors by deliberate genocide, etc. All have been practiced at one point or another. An economy based on property ownership, investment, and labor is absolutely a system created by humanity, though you could argue many of its observed properties are emergent.

danmaz74 11y ago
The key in my comment is the difference between "built" (as in: purposefully designed and built, like it happens with software) and "created" (as in: you can accidentally create something). But I know that human language isn't so well defined and other people can give different meanings to those terms... because nobody "built" English! Regarding "We could just as easily have chosen" I don't agree at all on "easily". Contrary to many theories which say or imply that, people's minds aren't blank slates that can be easily programmed (not to mention re-programmed) to adapt to any social engineering project. Countless examples in history prove this.