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This should be an important topic of conversation in technology. Similar to other real threats to U.S. companies and citizens, Chinese espionage is the real dea

by ap22213 11y ago

This should be an important topic of conversation in technology. Similar to other real threats to U.S. companies and citizens, Chinese espionage is the real deal. It's unfortunate that Mr Xi was caught in the crossfire. But, it's not like he was held in prison without justice. In this case, the justice system worked itself out, and Xi was shown to be innocent. He was not, as far as I can tell from reading the article, deemed guilty until proven innocent. He was suspected of a crime, the evidence showed that he had not committed a crime, and the charges were dropped. But, generally, I think the U.S. is much too lax in its patrolling of Chinese espionage. Things have been out of control for many years, at least for the couple decades that I've worked in research and development. Too often, at conferences and trade shows, have I seen the roving groups of Chinese with their video cameras and notebooks, blatantly stealing ideas and IP. Several times, I've witnessed suspicious Chinese citizens coming to work for tech companies, straight from China, being overly interested in details of IP, then mysteriously quitting, without a trace. It's a real problem.

sandworm101 11y ago
Not really. This wasn't a speeding ticket. Serious money was spent on this investigation and equally serious money was spent by the accused on his defense. The worry is best expressed by the Dr. Xi's lawyer... "If he was Canadian-American or French-American, or he was from the U.K., would this have ever even got on the government’s radar? I don’t think so,” Mr. Zeidenberg said." The implication is that investigators are targeting Chinese-americans under the assumption that Chinese-american's are sending information to china and so must be scrutinized. That sort of thinking leads to dark places. Imho money a far greater motivation than family history or racial affiliation. That should be the focus.
- Torgo 11y ago
  Everybody in the West seems to think that everywhere else is just like them when it comes to lack of racial and national solidarity.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    What lack? National solidarity is a big thing for Americans. I think they assume everyone is innately loyal to their birth country. This in turn causes them to distrust those many Americans born elsewhere. Ted Cruz (born in canada) was pushed into having the canadian government renounce his potential citizenship, something unheard of in immigration law.
    - refurb 11y ago
      I don't think the Ted Cruz case is that odd. Same thing happened in Canada with the Governor General. She had gotten married and gotten French Citizenship through her husband. She was asked to renounce it and she did.
      - sandworm101 11y ago
        She was to be the Queen's representative, effectively the head of state. That's a rather special circumstance. And another point: The entire concept of renouncing citizenship is strange. Citizenship isn't something you own, it's also a duty. Most countries do not allow their citizens to walk away. China and the US famously believe that everyone remains a citizen wherever they go in life. You cannot walk away from US citizenship (the draft, Vietnam etc) anymore than you can decide to move to canada and stop paying US taxes. That made Ted Cruz's request even more odd.
        jacobolus 11y ago
        > You cannot walk away from US citizenship Sure you can: http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/renunciation-of-citizenship.html http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-conside...
        sandworm101 11y ago
        Dude. Read the fine print: "Persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware of the fact that renunciation of U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information)." You may give up the right to vote, but you are still subject to taxation rules and/or military service, both of which can change at any time. You sometimes hear of Canadian celebrities in the US (there are lots of them) debating whether or not they should become US citizens: short v long-term tax advantages. The really outside case is treason charges. A renounced US citizen can still be charged as a traitor for acts committed overseas, whereas a non-citizen would have to commit the acts within the US for treason to be an option.
- ap22213 11y ago
  His ethnicity is a red herring. The important point is that he seems to have had a lot of correspondence with other Chinese, in China. I have worked with many Chinese-Americans. Many of them have no ties to China. Many of them, being 2nd or 3rd generation Americans, don't even know Chinese. I truly doubt that they'd be targets of investigations just because they were ethnic Chinese. On the other hand, if the person was Canadian-American and had significant correspondence with China, they probably could be considered suspicious. I think you'd agree that the U.S. Justice system is an imprecise system. Some innocent are convicted. And, some guilty go free. It's a delicate balancing act to find the sweet spot in the middle where most criminals are punished and all innocent are untouched. This is an ongoing challenge. The problem would be if there was a systematic bias in the system that unfairly targeted particular groups of people. Although Mr Xi's case is unfortunate, a sample size of one doesn't prove a systematic bias.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    Are any Apple execs under investigation? They certainly have loads of communication in and out of china, own lots of property in china, send money to chinese businesses daily and communicate directly with countless government officials. If suspects are selected based on "significant correspondence with China" then lots of people at big tech companies should be under constant surveillance.
MaulingMonkey 11y ago
> But, it's not like he was held in prison without justice. "Just" jail until he posted a $100K bond. If you have any evidence the other injustices against Mr Xi were righted, I could use the pick-me-up.
lukeschlather 11y ago
He received large punishments before the case was even tried. He was stripped of his post at the university and lost 3 months of his life due to baseless allegations. (Not to mention court fees, lawyer fees, bail bond fees.) Merely getting charged with a crime in this country can easily ruin your life. This seems like a much bigger problem than Chinese espionage. Most of our hardware is built in China anyway.
- bruceb 11y ago
  He should have his lawyers paid for and reasonable compensation. This doesn't mean Chinese espionage is not a problem. Just because your iphone/android is made in China doesn't mean there isn't plenty of sensitive tech mot made in China.
mindslight 11y ago
> it's not like he was held in prison without justice This article must have skipped the part where he was compensated for his time spent in jail, loss of job, loss of professional reputation, money spent to defend himself, and any other damages. Surely if he received justice, then he was made whole after this ordeal.
CamperBob2 11y ago
Don't want your IP "stolen?" Trade shows and conferences may not be for you.
ken47 11y ago
"Too often, at conferences and trade shows, have I seen the roving groups of Chinese with their video cameras and notebooks, blatantly stealing ideas and IP." What in the world? What about the non-Chinese people who take notes and videotape at conferences? In what America are sensitive national secrets or company IP put on display at public conferences? I think most people here are open to rational arguments, but some people try a little bit too hard to conjure the Chinese bogeyman.
- 9872 11y ago
  Those people are okay. They look more like me.
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  I have been to conferences where presenters from large US companies ask the audience to refrain from videotaping/photographing during their presentations. And I agree the premise is silly, you go to a conference because you have something to share.
hackuser 11y ago
Consider what it would be like if your house was raided by armed people, and they walked off personal goods with them, combed over your private life, arrested and handcuffed you, told the world you were a criminal, and had you and your family in fear your career was over and you were going to prison. Whatever the outcome, if I were innocent I don't think I would be sanguine about the functioning of the system of justice.

by ap22213 11y ago

sandworm101 11y ago

Not really. This wasn't a speeding ticket. Serious money was spent on this investigation and equally serious money was spent by the accused on his defense. The worry is best expressed by the Dr. Xi's lawyer... "If he was Canadian-American or French-American, or he was from the U.K., would this have ever even got on the government’s radar? I don’t think so,” Mr. Zeidenberg said." The implication is that investigators are targeting Chinese-americans under the assumption that Chinese-american's are sending information to china and so must be scrutinized. That sort of thinking leads to dark places. Imho money a far greater motivation than family history or racial affiliation. That should be the focus.

Torgo 11y ago
Everybody in the West seems to think that everywhere else is just like them when it comes to lack of racial and national solidarity.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  What lack? National solidarity is a big thing for Americans. I think they assume everyone is innately loyal to their birth country. This in turn causes them to distrust those many Americans born elsewhere. Ted Cruz (born in canada) was pushed into having the canadian government renounce his potential citizenship, something unheard of in immigration law.
  - refurb 11y ago
    I don't think the Ted Cruz case is that odd. Same thing happened in Canada with the Governor General. She had gotten married and gotten French Citizenship through her husband. She was asked to renounce it and she did.
    - sandworm101 11y ago
      She was to be the Queen's representative, effectively the head of state. That's a rather special circumstance. And another point: The entire concept of renouncing citizenship is strange. Citizenship isn't something you own, it's also a duty. Most countries do not allow their citizens to walk away. China and the US famously believe that everyone remains a citizen wherever they go in life. You cannot walk away from US citizenship (the draft, Vietnam etc) anymore than you can decide to move to canada and stop paying US taxes. That made Ted Cruz's request even more odd.
      - jacobolus 11y ago
        > You cannot walk away from US citizenship Sure you can: http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/renunciation-of-citizenship.html http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-conside...
        sandworm101 11y ago
        Dude. Read the fine print: "Persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware of the fact that renunciation of U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information)." You may give up the right to vote, but you are still subject to taxation rules and/or military service, both of which can change at any time. You sometimes hear of Canadian celebrities in the US (there are lots of them) debating whether or not they should become US citizens: short v long-term tax advantages. The really outside case is treason charges. A renounced US citizen can still be charged as a traitor for acts committed overseas, whereas a non-citizen would have to commit the acts within the US for treason to be an option.
ap22213 11y ago
His ethnicity is a red herring. The important point is that he seems to have had a lot of correspondence with other Chinese, in China. I have worked with many Chinese-Americans. Many of them have no ties to China. Many of them, being 2nd or 3rd generation Americans, don't even know Chinese. I truly doubt that they'd be targets of investigations just because they were ethnic Chinese. On the other hand, if the person was Canadian-American and had significant correspondence with China, they probably could be considered suspicious. I think you'd agree that the U.S. Justice system is an imprecise system. Some innocent are convicted. And, some guilty go free. It's a delicate balancing act to find the sweet spot in the middle where most criminals are punished and all innocent are untouched. This is an ongoing challenge. The problem would be if there was a systematic bias in the system that unfairly targeted particular groups of people. Although Mr Xi's case is unfortunate, a sample size of one doesn't prove a systematic bias.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  Are any Apple execs under investigation? They certainly have loads of communication in and out of china, own lots of property in china, send money to chinese businesses daily and communicate directly with countless government officials. If suspects are selected based on "significant correspondence with China" then lots of people at big tech companies should be under constant surveillance.

MaulingMonkey 11y ago

> But, it's not like he was held in prison without justice. "Just" jail until he posted a $100K bond. If you have any evidence the other injustices against Mr Xi were righted, I could use the pick-me-up.

lukeschlather 11y ago

He received large punishments before the case was even tried. He was stripped of his post at the university and lost 3 months of his life due to baseless allegations. (Not to mention court fees, lawyer fees, bail bond fees.) Merely getting charged with a crime in this country can easily ruin your life. This seems like a much bigger problem than Chinese espionage. Most of our hardware is built in China anyway.

bruceb 11y ago
He should have his lawyers paid for and reasonable compensation. This doesn't mean Chinese espionage is not a problem. Just because your iphone/android is made in China doesn't mean there isn't plenty of sensitive tech mot made in China.

mindslight 11y ago

> it's not like he was held in prison without justice This article must have skipped the part where he was compensated for his time spent in jail, loss of job, loss of professional reputation, money spent to defend himself, and any other damages. Surely if he received justice, then he was made whole after this ordeal.

CamperBob2 11y ago

Don't want your IP "stolen?" Trade shows and conferences may not be for you.

ken47 11y ago

"Too often, at conferences and trade shows, have I seen the roving groups of Chinese with their video cameras and notebooks, blatantly stealing ideas and IP." What in the world? What about the non-Chinese people who take notes and videotape at conferences? In what America are sensitive national secrets or company IP put on display at public conferences? I think most people here are open to rational arguments, but some people try a little bit too hard to conjure the Chinese bogeyman.

9872 11y ago
Those people are okay. They look more like me.
semi-extrinsic 11y ago
I have been to conferences where presenters from large US companies ask the audience to refrain from videotaping/photographing during their presentations. And I agree the premise is silly, you go to a conference because you have something to share.

hackuser 11y ago

Consider what it would be like if your house was raided by armed people, and they walked off personal goods with them, combed over your private life, arrested and handcuffed you, told the world you were a criminal, and had you and your family in fear your career was over and you were going to prison. Whatever the outcome, if I were innocent I don't think I would be sanguine about the functioning of the system of justice.