6 ms·

There are risks involved in a Kickstarter. I'm sure these are spelled out in the terms and conditions in funding a Kickstarter. While fraud should be protected,

by ghayes 11y ago

There are risks involved in a Kickstarter. I'm sure these are spelled out in the terms and conditions in funding a Kickstarter. While fraud should be protected, a good-hearted attempt that fails should be covered by that contract, in my opinion.

mmanfrin 11y ago
In this case, there appears to have been no good-hearted attempt -- the project was funded almost 3 years ago, and the fulfillment of creating was to be handled by the US Playing Card Company. This means that the only real work required was to get a batch printed, then mail them out. This was either malice or just plain stupidity on the part of the creator. People are starting to get their cards now, but I think that has more to do with this lawsuit and the media coverage Nash has gotten for this. But I wholeheartedly agree that if a backer makes a good faith attempt to fulfill promises, then not shipping is not a punishable offense.
- TallGuyShort 11y ago
  I also agree - I've only backed a couple of Kickstarter's, but I'm quite certain I was explicitly told that there was no guarantee backing a project and the project being funded would result in me actually getting the rewards. On the other hand, there are many cases where people mutually agree to a contract, but that contract is not enforceable because it violates certain laws. Minimum wage, for instance. Effectively I'm not allowed to work for someone unless I'm worth a certain minimum threshold, because if that was allowed we would lose certain protections against exploitation (of course there's all sorts of room for opinions there). You can back a KickStarter, but certain governments may still hold the project to higher standards than KickStarter does.
- x5n1 11y ago
  Not malice, fraud.
  - RickHull 11y ago
    Eh? Fraud is malicious.
  - RickHull 11y ago
    Eh? Fraud is malicious.
tinco 11y ago
I think this is why you should always have an LLC when you do a Kickstarter. That way if your attempt fails, the funders can sue the LLC for their money back, the judge can award it and the LLC will file for bankruptcy. That way only people who ran their LLC recklessly (i.e. not following the LLC rules) can be held personally liable. The 'good-hearted' will simply get a bankrupt LLC on their name.
- tedunangst 11y ago
  Will it matter? It seems the people most likely to be sued are exactly those for whom the LLC will offer no shield.
  - arrosenberg 11y ago
    No, not in cases like this, given that most judges would pierce the veil in cases involving bad actors. However, given that a precedent for suing a failed Kickstarter was just set, it makes a ton of sense to form an LLC before doing a Kickstarter now, since funders may not make rational decisions about whether to sue or not if they don't get their rewards.
    - tedunangst 11y ago
      I would argue the precedent is now set for "bad kickstarters" not just "failed kickstarters", but ok.
NelsonMinar 11y ago
The old terms and conditions in funding a Kickstarter were very clear. Either the project delivered, or else all the backers got their money refunded. There's no "good hearted" about it in the contractual materials. The truth is that no one's ever collected from this and there have been a lot of funded, failed Kickstarter projects that never refunded anything. Until this one. A lot of people say Kickstarter shouldn't be like this, that no one should expect refunds. But that wasn't the way the site worked until a couple of years ago when the TOS changed.
- Arzh 11y ago
  Do you have a link to the old terms? I don't remember that ever being the case that they were to refund the money after the project went through.
  - pmh 11y ago
    For projects backed before Oct 19 2014: https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012 https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012 Under "Projects: Fundraising and Commerce": "Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."
    - Qualman 11y ago
      > By backing a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Backer accept that offer and the contract between Backer and Project Creator is formed. Kickstarter is not a party to that agreement between the Backer and Project Creator. All dealings are solely between Users. I'm not convinced. The section you referenced pertains to the backing rewards only. They are, and always seem to have been, very hands-off about the delivery of the project.
      - potatolicious 11y ago
        The project itself is almost always also the reward. e.g., "$50 tier, get a copy of the game" Unless none of the reward tiers involve the project itself, and are all things like t-shirts and stickers...
aaron695 11y ago
100% agree. Not spelt out well is this project is considered to be a scam though. http://icollectplayingcards.com/back-to-the-asylum-playing-cards-on-kickstarter-now http://icollectplayingcards.com/back-to-the-asylum-playing-c...

by ghayes 11y ago

mmanfrin 11y ago

In this case, there appears to have been no good-hearted attempt -- the project was funded almost 3 years ago, and the fulfillment of creating was to be handled by the US Playing Card Company. This means that the only real work required was to get a batch printed, then mail them out. This was either malice or just plain stupidity on the part of the creator. People are starting to get their cards now, but I think that has more to do with this lawsuit and the media coverage Nash has gotten for this. But I wholeheartedly agree that if a backer makes a good faith attempt to fulfill promises, then not shipping is not a punishable offense.

TallGuyShort 11y ago
I also agree - I've only backed a couple of Kickstarter's, but I'm quite certain I was explicitly told that there was no guarantee backing a project and the project being funded would result in me actually getting the rewards. On the other hand, there are many cases where people mutually agree to a contract, but that contract is not enforceable because it violates certain laws. Minimum wage, for instance. Effectively I'm not allowed to work for someone unless I'm worth a certain minimum threshold, because if that was allowed we would lose certain protections against exploitation (of course there's all sorts of room for opinions there). You can back a KickStarter, but certain governments may still hold the project to higher standards than KickStarter does.
x5n1 11y ago
Not malice, fraud.
- RickHull 11y ago
  Eh? Fraud is malicious.
- RickHull 11y ago
  Eh? Fraud is malicious.

tinco 11y ago

I think this is why you should always have an LLC when you do a Kickstarter. That way if your attempt fails, the funders can sue the LLC for their money back, the judge can award it and the LLC will file for bankruptcy. That way only people who ran their LLC recklessly (i.e. not following the LLC rules) can be held personally liable. The 'good-hearted' will simply get a bankrupt LLC on their name.

tedunangst 11y ago
Will it matter? It seems the people most likely to be sued are exactly those for whom the LLC will offer no shield.
- arrosenberg 11y ago
  No, not in cases like this, given that most judges would pierce the veil in cases involving bad actors. However, given that a precedent for suing a failed Kickstarter was just set, it makes a ton of sense to form an LLC before doing a Kickstarter now, since funders may not make rational decisions about whether to sue or not if they don't get their rewards.
  - tedunangst 11y ago
    I would argue the precedent is now set for "bad kickstarters" not just "failed kickstarters", but ok.

NelsonMinar 11y ago

The old terms and conditions in funding a Kickstarter were very clear. Either the project delivered, or else all the backers got their money refunded. There's no "good hearted" about it in the contractual materials. The truth is that no one's ever collected from this and there have been a lot of funded, failed Kickstarter projects that never refunded anything. Until this one. A lot of people say Kickstarter shouldn't be like this, that no one should expect refunds. But that wasn't the way the site worked until a couple of years ago when the TOS changed.

Arzh 11y ago
Do you have a link to the old terms? I don't remember that ever being the case that they were to refund the money after the project went through.
- pmh 11y ago
  For projects backed before Oct 19 2014: https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012 https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012 Under "Projects: Fundraising and Commerce": "Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."
  - Qualman 11y ago
    > By backing a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Backer accept that offer and the contract between Backer and Project Creator is formed. Kickstarter is not a party to that agreement between the Backer and Project Creator. All dealings are solely between Users. I'm not convinced. The section you referenced pertains to the backing rewards only. They are, and always seem to have been, very hands-off about the delivery of the project.
    - potatolicious 11y ago
      The project itself is almost always also the reward. e.g., "$50 tier, get a copy of the game" Unless none of the reward tiers involve the project itself, and are all things like t-shirts and stickers...

aaron695 11y ago

100% agree. Not spelt out well is this project is considered to be a scam though. http://icollectplayingcards.com/back-to-the-asylum-playing-cards-on-kickstarter-now http://icollectplayingcards.com/back-to-the-asylum-playing-c...