4 ms·

Keyboard Manufacturers Are All Slackers

31 points by AndyKelley 17y ago

philk 17y ago
There are keyboards out there that support more than 3 keys at once (for example the Gigabyte GK-K8000 which has support for 'n-key rollover'). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key) http://www.gigabyte-usa.com/Products/Keyboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2789&ProductName=GK-K8000 http://www.gigabyte-usa.com/Products/Keyboard/Products_Overv...
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
whalesalad 17y ago
Save for web in Photoshop is Command + Option + Shift + S, and I do it dozens of times a day. Every Mac I have ever used has been able to do this :)
- amvp 17y ago
  Same for me on windows -and I've done this on many machines and keyboards. there seems to be more to this than the article let's on.
- djcapelis 17y ago
  Modifier keys are usually specially dealt with on the matrix of wires in your keyboard to make that work. The issue is how many non-modifier keys the keyboard can register at once. That said, other comments note that Apple seems to lay a dense matrix that allows for high numbers of simultaneous key presses to be registered even for non-modifier keys. Perhaps this finally explains some of why their keyboards cost $50 instead of $3. (Definitely not all, but if this is true, it's a nice touch.)
  - riobard 17y ago
    Tried on my Unibody MacBook. Can register 6 non-modifier keys at once. I like the feel of the keys actually. Not sure what mechanism it's using, but definitely much better than all other notebooks. Also found a 1991 UK-made IBM Model M. The clicking sound is such a great joy :)
- jodrellblank 17y ago
  Everything on a Mac is command+option+shift+fn+esc+tab+jump+button-A+something. If they couldn't handle dozens of simultaneous keypresses, half the OS X keyboard "shortcuts" would stop working.
tezza 17y ago
It has to do with the in hardware device key mapping. Most keyboards use resistance circuits to tell which key has been depressed. When you depress more than 1 key most of these designs cannot tell between the values. Modifier Keys like shift, control are mostly separately monitored and thus independent. See the matrix on this page:: http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-your-own-Roll-Up-Keyboard/ http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-your-own-Roll-Up-Keyboa...
harpastum 17y ago
For my Mid-2009 13" Macbook Pro, I can press up to 6 alpha-numeric keys and 5 function keys (shift, option, control, command, function) at once, for eleven total keys. OS X users can test this for themselves using the "Keyboard Viewer" accessible through System Prefs/Universal Access. While some manufacturers may be slackers, it doesn't appear that they all are.
- city41 17y ago
  I'm limited to 5 alpha numeric keys, and I get the Keyboard viewer via System Preferences > Keyboard > "Show Keyboard & Character Viewer in menu bar" There's also a lot to be said about the feel and quality of the keyboard. We press these little buttons thousands of times a day, millions of times in our lifetime. A clunky, overly loud keyboard, or one that requires too much travel is a terrible thing to have to work with.
  - eru 17y ago
    If you want to avoid too much travel, you should not be using a qwerty layout. E.g. Dvorak optimises for less finger travel.
    - rufo 17y ago
      I think he means up/down travel, not how much your fingers move when typing.
      - eru 17y ago
        Yes, that may be possible.
- ciupicri 17y ago
  Does anyone has any idea how to test this under Linux instead of OS X?
fragmede 17y ago
Others have said - buy a more expensive keyboard. That solves the complaint in the article. Except it doesn't. 'N-key rollover' doesn't exist as a market differentiator. Unless you've gotten frustrated by this problem, decided it was actually worth your time to research it, how could you know that 'N-key rollover' is the differentiator you're looking for? The market has spoken, and 'cheap' is better than N-key rollover. Or 'good enough', anyway. It's 2009 and the writer still can't play Metroid III. I'd bet that there'll still be the same problem in 2019, even though the technical solution has existed since keyboards were invented.
- city41 17y ago
  But if the OP is really concerned about a quality experience playing Metroid III, shouldn't he be using a gamepad? It's 2009 and I still can't type very well with my flight stick either.
  - Deestan 17y ago
    Excellent point. Why are people discussing 250$ for a game-able keyboard when you can buy a decent gamepad for less than 50$?
devin 17y ago
It's called n-key rollover. Yes, many companies make absolute crap for keyboards, and yet people actually make fun of me at work for buying a 250$ keyboard. Would they ever suggest 250$ is too much to spend on, say, a bed? I doubt it. elitekeyboards.com <-- the best keyboards money can buy. n-key rollover, topre capacitive switches, etc. geekhack.org is a great reference.
- city41 17y ago
  How do these compare to the current gen of Mac keyboards, response and feel wise? The current gen Mac keyboard is my all time favorite, all my computers have them.
  - GeoJawDguJin 17y ago
    Currently, Apple only makes membrane keyboards. Even as membrane keyboards go, the best I can say about them (subjectively) is that they're not quite as awful as most of the competition. A better comparison would be with old (early 90s) ADB models, such as the Apple Extended Keyboard II.
- eru 17y ago
  > elitekeyboards.com They look like ordinary bad keyboards. I prefer the Kinesis contoured (http://images.google.com/images?q=kinesis%20contoured http://images.google.com/images?q=kinesis%20contoured).
  - rit 17y ago
    > They look like ordinary bad keyboards. They aren't (in my opinion, and by basis of the construction thereof). The keyboards they carry are japanese imports most of which use Cherry switches. They also, unlike the Das Keyboard, have well built controllers. Pricey, but worth it. I adore the Majestouch Click Otakus that I got from Elitekeyboards. Contoured keyboards are in some cases an acquired taste, in others unusable. I have an old hand injury that makes it tough for me to use something like the Kinesis which puts my hands in awkward positions. I've been forced to find decent standard keyboards, which have consistent keystrikes [which a membrane won't provide]. For what it's worth, I find this article to be a good read on what the deal is with quality keyboard switches, including Cherry and Alp clones: http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/09/mechanical-key-switch-keyboards-demystified.aspx http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/09/mech... There's another article and I believe it was on my bookmarks at the last job and I didn't copy it over, but if I find it i'll add it in. EDIT: Keep in mind also good switches only take you so far - the problems the Das Keyboards [which use Cherry switches] have had is poor controllers. BUT, even with a good controller, my understanding is USB has a limitation on N-Key rollover to a low number of simultaneous key presses. Most of the quality keyboards come with PS2 adapters and recommend using PS2 if you want full bandwidth. ANOTHER EDIT: This I believe is the "other" guide I was thinking of. It gives an overview of several "mechanical" keyboards which may be useful for those looking for an alternative to the $20 freebie their computer came with: http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechani... ... Personally, since I've started using mechanicals I've had most of the end-of-day wrist pain I used to experience disappear.
oomkiller 17y ago
My Das Keyboard (Mechanical), has no trouble with this
fragmede 17y ago
Keyboard Manufacturers Are All Slackers... Keyboards aren't going to fundamentally change but there are manufacturers who aren't slackers, who are trying. (As far as the original article - use ctrl, alt and shift - they're designed as modifiers - for your Metroid III action.) Think of the Anykey on older Gateway keyboards[1], or the Compaq keyboards with the split spacebar where the left half was actually backspace[2], or the new-ish Dell keyboards where the layout of the six keys above the arrow keys has been changed to feature a huge delete key[3]. The Windows key, a long loathed key by many a gamer, forced back to the desktop in the midst of a critical section. Most have only come to accept since it pretends it isn't there as many games disable it. And even then, it only uses up previously unused space which doesn't moving other keys around. These little 'innovations' annoy me, and I'm sure many others, to no end. Innovations that ended up on the scrap heap of innovation and change-is-bad-ism. Keyboards /cannot/ fundamentally change because unless you magically replaced all the keyboards in the world at once, installed user-base just has too much inertia. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_AnyKey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_AnyKey [2] http://lowendmac.com/mail/07/art/keyb.jpg http://lowendmac.com/mail/07/art/keyb.jpg - Actually, that left half was actually remappable, which caused unending complaints due to unexpected behavior. [3] http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2011622454_dfe08bfcda.jpg?v=0 http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2011622454_dfe08bfcda.jp...
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
ableal 17y ago
What puzzles me is that even a simple USB hub (so that you can plug in a mouse or a pen) seems beyond most manufacturers. A few months ago, I managed to snag a keyboard with two USB ports and a scroll-wheel (the SlimStarPro from Genius), which promptly vanished from local retailer shelves. Not having reason to care about key rollover issues, I'd gladly trade the top rows of special-function buttons for a single small trackball in the wrist-rest area (as seen in early laptops such as the Apple Powerbook 100 of the 90s). I suppose it's "inconceivable" to sell that nowadays ...
- randallsquared 17y ago
  I suppose it's "inconceivable" to sell that nowadays .. Did you try Googling? I felt lucky, and on that page was this link: http://www.fentek-ind.com/kbemmtbusb2b.htm http://www.fentek-ind.com/kbemmtbusb2b.htm
  - ableal 17y ago
    Thanks, appreciated. Not completely extinct, then - but it seems to live in a quite small niche ;-)
ynniv 17y ago
It amuses me when people are surprised by product development. Here are the rules: - if the consumer will buy it, it isn't a flaw - if the consumer won't pay extra for it, it isn't a feature This is how all products in all markets are developed. On the rare occasion that a product developer takes it upon themselves to deliver a better product they will make less profit (reward), and therefore be less competitive and more likely to fail as a business. These companies are often called hobbies. The only way to improve products is to improve ("educate") consumers, and I'm not holding my breath on that one.
- jimmyjim 17y ago
  > This is how all products in all markets are developed. Why are you saying that in such absolute terms? As if they were the defining features that govern the markets. If that was really how it worked, what do you say to start-ups who make risky entrepreneurial bets on a daily basis? The usefulness of something is not always readily obvious. It takes time to internalize, and often we just won't get it unless it's been thoroughly marketed to us, or suggested by friends and peers. We can amply ridicule keyboard manufacturers for their lack of any real breakthroughs or innovation in recent years. Finally, about what I'd like to see in keyboards: 1) I've a Microsoft Natural 4000 keyboard ( http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/events/mshardware/images/image003.jpg http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/events/mshardware/images/... ) and I wish that instead of the 'zoom scrollbar' that's between the split, there was a mouse trackball. 2) The Compose and Alt Gr keys being standard in all keyboards. We live in the 21st century -- it's a globalized world. I want to be able to input foreign characters with ease (but as is, I've mapped my right alt to Alt Gr and right Ctrl to Compose - and I actually can input characters like this with much ease: áßðfghïœø¶æœ©®bññµçåéëþüíúóö¹²³€¹²³¤€’¥×÷¤€‘Á§ÐÄÅÉËÜÍÓÖÚ¦‘’ «» “”, etc.)
  - ynniv 17y ago
    If that was really how it worked, what do you say to start-ups who make risky entrepreneurial bets on a daily basis? Make things that people want? [ http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html ] we just won't get it unless it's been thoroughly marketed to us, or suggested by friends and peers. Yes, there is no demand for something novel without appropriately educated consumers. (I swear I just said that...) We can amply ridicule keyboard manufacturers for their lack of any real breakthroughs or innovation in recent years. Why? They have made great strides in creating exactly what consumers want: a $20 surprisingly durable USB keyboard with a 104 key layout (ex. Dell CJ651). The original poster's motivation is his realization that he is not the average consumer, and thus is not satisfied with the average product. Finally, about what I'd like to see in keyboards We all want a pony. I'll make you one, but it will cost $1,000 - I presume that you're okay with this. Your extended character input problems have nothing to do with your keyboard - Mac OS X can easily input most of them with a small number of strokes on that same keyboard. You could switch the keys you speak of on Windows with different drivers.

31 points by AndyKelley 17y ago

philk 17y ago

There are keyboards out there that support more than 3 keys at once (for example the Gigabyte GK-K8000 which has support for 'n-key rollover'). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key) http://www.gigabyte-usa.com/Products/Keyboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2789&ProductName=GK-K8000 http://www.gigabyte-usa.com/Products/Keyboard/Products_Overv...

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

whalesalad 17y ago

Save for web in Photoshop is Command + Option + Shift + S, and I do it dozens of times a day. Every Mac I have ever used has been able to do this :)

amvp 17y ago
Same for me on windows -and I've done this on many machines and keyboards. there seems to be more to this than the article let's on.
djcapelis 17y ago
Modifier keys are usually specially dealt with on the matrix of wires in your keyboard to make that work. The issue is how many non-modifier keys the keyboard can register at once. That said, other comments note that Apple seems to lay a dense matrix that allows for high numbers of simultaneous key presses to be registered even for non-modifier keys. Perhaps this finally explains some of why their keyboards cost $50 instead of $3. (Definitely not all, but if this is true, it's a nice touch.)
- riobard 17y ago
  Tried on my Unibody MacBook. Can register 6 non-modifier keys at once. I like the feel of the keys actually. Not sure what mechanism it's using, but definitely much better than all other notebooks. Also found a 1991 UK-made IBM Model M. The clicking sound is such a great joy :)
jodrellblank 17y ago
Everything on a Mac is command+option+shift+fn+esc+tab+jump+button-A+something. If they couldn't handle dozens of simultaneous keypresses, half the OS X keyboard "shortcuts" would stop working.

tezza 17y ago

It has to do with the in hardware device key mapping. Most keyboards use resistance circuits to tell which key has been depressed. When you depress more than 1 key most of these designs cannot tell between the values. Modifier Keys like shift, control are mostly separately monitored and thus independent. See the matrix on this page:: http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-your-own-Roll-Up-Keyboard/ http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-your-own-Roll-Up-Keyboa...

harpastum 17y ago

For my Mid-2009 13" Macbook Pro, I can press up to 6 alpha-numeric keys and 5 function keys (shift, option, control, command, function) at once, for eleven total keys. OS X users can test this for themselves using the "Keyboard Viewer" accessible through System Prefs/Universal Access. While some manufacturers may be slackers, it doesn't appear that they all are.

city41 17y ago
I'm limited to 5 alpha numeric keys, and I get the Keyboard viewer via System Preferences > Keyboard > "Show Keyboard & Character Viewer in menu bar" There's also a lot to be said about the feel and quality of the keyboard. We press these little buttons thousands of times a day, millions of times in our lifetime. A clunky, overly loud keyboard, or one that requires too much travel is a terrible thing to have to work with.
- eru 17y ago
  If you want to avoid too much travel, you should not be using a qwerty layout. E.g. Dvorak optimises for less finger travel.
  - rufo 17y ago
    I think he means up/down travel, not how much your fingers move when typing.
    - eru 17y ago
      Yes, that may be possible.
ciupicri 17y ago
Does anyone has any idea how to test this under Linux instead of OS X?

fragmede 17y ago

Others have said - buy a more expensive keyboard. That solves the complaint in the article. Except it doesn't. 'N-key rollover' doesn't exist as a market differentiator. Unless you've gotten frustrated by this problem, decided it was actually worth your time to research it, how could you know that 'N-key rollover' is the differentiator you're looking for? The market has spoken, and 'cheap' is better than N-key rollover. Or 'good enough', anyway. It's 2009 and the writer still can't play Metroid III. I'd bet that there'll still be the same problem in 2019, even though the technical solution has existed since keyboards were invented.

city41 17y ago
But if the OP is really concerned about a quality experience playing Metroid III, shouldn't he be using a gamepad? It's 2009 and I still can't type very well with my flight stick either.
- Deestan 17y ago
  Excellent point. Why are people discussing 250$ for a game-able keyboard when you can buy a decent gamepad for less than 50$?

devin 17y ago

It's called n-key rollover. Yes, many companies make absolute crap for keyboards, and yet people actually make fun of me at work for buying a 250$ keyboard. Would they ever suggest 250$ is too much to spend on, say, a bed? I doubt it. elitekeyboards.com <-- the best keyboards money can buy. n-key rollover, topre capacitive switches, etc. geekhack.org is a great reference.

city41 17y ago
How do these compare to the current gen of Mac keyboards, response and feel wise? The current gen Mac keyboard is my all time favorite, all my computers have them.
- GeoJawDguJin 17y ago
  Currently, Apple only makes membrane keyboards. Even as membrane keyboards go, the best I can say about them (subjectively) is that they're not quite as awful as most of the competition. A better comparison would be with old (early 90s) ADB models, such as the Apple Extended Keyboard II.
eru 17y ago
> elitekeyboards.com They look like ordinary bad keyboards. I prefer the Kinesis contoured (http://images.google.com/images?q=kinesis%20contoured http://images.google.com/images?q=kinesis%20contoured).
- rit 17y ago
  > They look like ordinary bad keyboards. They aren't (in my opinion, and by basis of the construction thereof). The keyboards they carry are japanese imports most of which use Cherry switches. They also, unlike the Das Keyboard, have well built controllers. Pricey, but worth it. I adore the Majestouch Click Otakus that I got from Elitekeyboards. Contoured keyboards are in some cases an acquired taste, in others unusable. I have an old hand injury that makes it tough for me to use something like the Kinesis which puts my hands in awkward positions. I've been forced to find decent standard keyboards, which have consistent keystrikes [which a membrane won't provide]. For what it's worth, I find this article to be a good read on what the deal is with quality keyboard switches, including Cherry and Alp clones: http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/09/mechanical-key-switch-keyboards-demystified.aspx http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/09/mech... There's another article and I believe it was on my bookmarks at the last job and I didn't copy it over, but if I find it i'll add it in. EDIT: Keep in mind also good switches only take you so far - the problems the Das Keyboards [which use Cherry switches] have had is poor controllers. BUT, even with a good controller, my understanding is USB has a limitation on N-Key rollover to a low number of simultaneous key presses. Most of the quality keyboards come with PS2 adapters and recommend using PS2 if you want full bandwidth. ANOTHER EDIT: This I believe is the "other" guide I was thinking of. It gives an overview of several "mechanical" keyboards which may be useful for those looking for an alternative to the $20 freebie their computer came with: http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechani... ... Personally, since I've started using mechanicals I've had most of the end-of-day wrist pain I used to experience disappear.

oomkiller 17y ago

My Das Keyboard (Mechanical), has no trouble with this

fragmede 17y ago

Keyboard Manufacturers Are All Slackers... Keyboards aren't going to fundamentally change but there are manufacturers who aren't slackers, who are trying. (As far as the original article - use ctrl, alt and shift - they're designed as modifiers - for your Metroid III action.) Think of the Anykey on older Gateway keyboards[1], or the Compaq keyboards with the split spacebar where the left half was actually backspace[2], or the new-ish Dell keyboards where the layout of the six keys above the arrow keys has been changed to feature a huge delete key[3]. The Windows key, a long loathed key by many a gamer, forced back to the desktop in the midst of a critical section. Most have only come to accept since it pretends it isn't there as many games disable it. And even then, it only uses up previously unused space which doesn't moving other keys around. These little 'innovations' annoy me, and I'm sure many others, to no end. Innovations that ended up on the scrap heap of innovation and change-is-bad-ism. Keyboards /cannot/ fundamentally change because unless you magically replaced all the keyboards in the world at once, installed user-base just has too much inertia. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_AnyKey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_AnyKey [2] http://lowendmac.com/mail/07/art/keyb.jpg http://lowendmac.com/mail/07/art/keyb.jpg - Actually, that left half was actually remappable, which caused unending complaints due to unexpected behavior. [3] http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2011622454_dfe08bfcda.jpg?v=0 http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2011622454_dfe08bfcda.jp...

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

ableal 17y ago

What puzzles me is that even a simple USB hub (so that you can plug in a mouse or a pen) seems beyond most manufacturers. A few months ago, I managed to snag a keyboard with two USB ports and a scroll-wheel (the SlimStarPro from Genius), which promptly vanished from local retailer shelves. Not having reason to care about key rollover issues, I'd gladly trade the top rows of special-function buttons for a single small trackball in the wrist-rest area (as seen in early laptops such as the Apple Powerbook 100 of the 90s). I suppose it's "inconceivable" to sell that nowadays ...

randallsquared 17y ago
I suppose it's "inconceivable" to sell that nowadays .. Did you try Googling? I felt lucky, and on that page was this link: http://www.fentek-ind.com/kbemmtbusb2b.htm http://www.fentek-ind.com/kbemmtbusb2b.htm
- ableal 17y ago
  Thanks, appreciated. Not completely extinct, then - but it seems to live in a quite small niche ;-)

ynniv 17y ago

It amuses me when people are surprised by product development. Here are the rules: - if the consumer will buy it, it isn't a flaw - if the consumer won't pay extra for it, it isn't a feature This is how all products in all markets are developed. On the rare occasion that a product developer takes it upon themselves to deliver a better product they will make less profit (reward), and therefore be less competitive and more likely to fail as a business. These companies are often called hobbies. The only way to improve products is to improve ("educate") consumers, and I'm not holding my breath on that one.

jimmyjim 17y ago
> This is how all products in all markets are developed. Why are you saying that in such absolute terms? As if they were the defining features that govern the markets. If that was really how it worked, what do you say to start-ups who make risky entrepreneurial bets on a daily basis? The usefulness of something is not always readily obvious. It takes time to internalize, and often we just won't get it unless it's been thoroughly marketed to us, or suggested by friends and peers. We can amply ridicule keyboard manufacturers for their lack of any real breakthroughs or innovation in recent years. Finally, about what I'd like to see in keyboards: 1) I've a Microsoft Natural 4000 keyboard ( http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/events/mshardware/images/image003.jpg http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/events/mshardware/images/... ) and I wish that instead of the 'zoom scrollbar' that's between the split, there was a mouse trackball. 2) The Compose and Alt Gr keys being standard in all keyboards. We live in the 21st century -- it's a globalized world. I want to be able to input foreign characters with ease (but as is, I've mapped my right alt to Alt Gr and right Ctrl to Compose - and I actually can input characters like this with much ease: áßðfghïœø¶æœ©®bññµçåéëþüíúóö¹²³€¹²³¤€’¥×÷¤€‘Á§ÐÄÅÉËÜÍÓÖÚ¦‘’ «» “”, etc.)
- ynniv 17y ago
  If that was really how it worked, what do you say to start-ups who make risky entrepreneurial bets on a daily basis? Make things that people want? [ http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html ] we just won't get it unless it's been thoroughly marketed to us, or suggested by friends and peers. Yes, there is no demand for something novel without appropriately educated consumers. (I swear I just said that...) We can amply ridicule keyboard manufacturers for their lack of any real breakthroughs or innovation in recent years. Why? They have made great strides in creating exactly what consumers want: a $20 surprisingly durable USB keyboard with a 104 key layout (ex. Dell CJ651). The original poster's motivation is his realization that he is not the average consumer, and thus is not satisfied with the average product. Finally, about what I'd like to see in keyboards We all want a pony. I'll make you one, but it will cost $1,000 - I presume that you're okay with this. Your extended character input problems have nothing to do with your keyboard - Mac OS X can easily input most of them with a small number of strokes on that same keyboard. You could switch the keys you speak of on Windows with different drivers.