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Well, yes. The chicken was definitely alive. None of us can know whether it was suffering. Once you remove parts of the brain, all bets are off. In a human, the

Well, yes. The chicken was definitely alive. None of us can know whether it was suffering. Once you remove parts of the brain, all bets are off. In a human, the front of your brain (such as the prefrontal cortex) is where a lot of what makes you "you" lives.

trhway 11y ago
>None of us can know whether it was suffering. you must be kidding. Until of course under "suffering" you mean a suffering of a Victorian girl who can't communicate her love to that fine Navy officer. > Once you remove parts of the brain, all bets are off. In a human, the front of your brain (such as the prefrontal cortex) is where a lot of what makes you "you" lives. if you google something like "brain pain perception", you'll find that the front of the brain is responsible for conscious reaction to pain, like planning action to avoid it. The pain itself is very primal, ie. like amygdala primal.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Pain and suffering are clearly very different things. I'd suggest that 'conscious reaction to pain' is a good working definition of 'suffering'.
  - trhway 11y ago
    it already has definition : suffering - "the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship." Introducing new definitions like yours is just an implicit attempt to advance anthropocentric exclusivity, pretty much the re-worded equivalent of that religious dogma of "only humans have soul"
    - cgio 11y ago
      According to your own definition, I think the GP argues whether there is a state to talk about without consciousness.
      - trhway 11y ago
        the "state" in the definition is just a general word, like vapor state of water, state of things, etc... Feel free to google on your own.
        cgio 11y ago
        There is no general word. Philosophy itself is the art of putting the wrong words in the right order.
    - dvt 11y ago
      > Introducing new definitions like yours is just an implicit attempt to advance anthropocentric exclusivity, pretty much the re-worded equivalent of that religious dogma of "only humans have soul" Oh man, I hope you realize how /r/iamverysmart you sound right now. The poster you're replying to has a very good point that is often discussed by philosophers[1]. Your anti-theist quip doesn't serve your point either. It just makes you seem like more of an asshat. Let me explain: since pain is (trivially) a subjective experience, does X still experience pain if it no longer has the capability for a subjective experience? For example, if I got hit by a car and ended up brain dead, it's intuitive to claim that I would no longer be able to experience pain even if you decided to cut off one of my limbs. Was the chicken in a similar state of being? I don't know -- maybe, but probably not. Either way, it's an interesting question. [1] http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pain/#second http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pain/#second
      - trhway 11y ago
        >Let me explain: since pain is (trivially) a subjective experience no. Pain has basic objective component, basic common denominator - it is the specific reaction of nervous system, specific set and intensity of signals going through it in reaction to tissue damage. More complex nervous systems build more complex constructs on top of that foundation, like the expectation of pain, memory of pain, etc... and many of that additional constructs are subjective in nature, no argument here. >For example, if I got hit by a car and ended up brain dead, it's intuitive to claim that I would no longer be able to experience pain even if you decided to cut off one of my limbs. does your amygdala still function - fully "brain dead" would mean no, so no pain.
        dvt 11y ago
        I linked you a very reputable source that contradicts what you're saying. In other words, you're simply wrong.
        trhway 11y ago
        it frequently happens to a "very reputable sources" in very politically charged situations :) I mean we have pain as feedback machinery driving behavioral adaptation in natural selection vs. subjective experience. The same old fight.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      ...and 'distress' means the conscious awareness of pain or discomfort?
      - SixSigma 11y ago
        pain OR distress
andreasklinger 11y ago
Agree on all bets are off But I am unsure if "being aware of oneself as a being that suffers" is needed to "be able to suffer".
JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Bits of it were. The head was probably dead.

trhway 11y ago

>None of us can know whether it was suffering. you must be kidding. Until of course under "suffering" you mean a suffering of a Victorian girl who can't communicate her love to that fine Navy officer. > Once you remove parts of the brain, all bets are off. In a human, the front of your brain (such as the prefrontal cortex) is where a lot of what makes you "you" lives. if you google something like "brain pain perception", you'll find that the front of the brain is responsible for conscious reaction to pain, like planning action to avoid it. The pain itself is very primal, ie. like amygdala primal.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Pain and suffering are clearly very different things. I'd suggest that 'conscious reaction to pain' is a good working definition of 'suffering'.
- trhway 11y ago
  it already has definition : suffering - "the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship." Introducing new definitions like yours is just an implicit attempt to advance anthropocentric exclusivity, pretty much the re-worded equivalent of that religious dogma of "only humans have soul"
  - cgio 11y ago
    According to your own definition, I think the GP argues whether there is a state to talk about without consciousness.
    - trhway 11y ago
      the "state" in the definition is just a general word, like vapor state of water, state of things, etc... Feel free to google on your own.
      - cgio 11y ago
        There is no general word. Philosophy itself is the art of putting the wrong words in the right order.
  - dvt 11y ago
    > Introducing new definitions like yours is just an implicit attempt to advance anthropocentric exclusivity, pretty much the re-worded equivalent of that religious dogma of "only humans have soul" Oh man, I hope you realize how /r/iamverysmart you sound right now. The poster you're replying to has a very good point that is often discussed by philosophers[1]. Your anti-theist quip doesn't serve your point either. It just makes you seem like more of an asshat. Let me explain: since pain is (trivially) a subjective experience, does X still experience pain if it no longer has the capability for a subjective experience? For example, if I got hit by a car and ended up brain dead, it's intuitive to claim that I would no longer be able to experience pain even if you decided to cut off one of my limbs. Was the chicken in a similar state of being? I don't know -- maybe, but probably not. Either way, it's an interesting question. [1] http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pain/#second http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pain/#second
    - trhway 11y ago
      >Let me explain: since pain is (trivially) a subjective experience no. Pain has basic objective component, basic common denominator - it is the specific reaction of nervous system, specific set and intensity of signals going through it in reaction to tissue damage. More complex nervous systems build more complex constructs on top of that foundation, like the expectation of pain, memory of pain, etc... and many of that additional constructs are subjective in nature, no argument here. >For example, if I got hit by a car and ended up brain dead, it's intuitive to claim that I would no longer be able to experience pain even if you decided to cut off one of my limbs. does your amygdala still function - fully "brain dead" would mean no, so no pain.
      - dvt 11y ago
        I linked you a very reputable source that contradicts what you're saying. In other words, you're simply wrong.
        trhway 11y ago
        it frequently happens to a "very reputable sources" in very politically charged situations :) I mean we have pain as feedback machinery driving behavioral adaptation in natural selection vs. subjective experience. The same old fight.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    ...and 'distress' means the conscious awareness of pain or discomfort?
    - SixSigma 11y ago
      pain OR distress

andreasklinger 11y ago

Agree on all bets are off But I am unsure if "being aware of oneself as a being that suffers" is needed to "be able to suffer".

JoeAltmaier 11y ago

Bits of it were. The head was probably dead.