6 ms·

Thank you so much. We need all the help we can get to expose & ridicule PCness like you just did, because it looks like these people really do exist and take th

by renaudg 11y ago

Thank you so much. We need all the help we can get to expose & ridicule PCness like you just did, because it looks like these people really do exist and take themselves seriously, and there's a whole new generation in US colleges that starts crying incontrollably when a law professor utters the word "rape", for example. This might boil down to a cultural difference, but to this European guy we're way past "you've got to be kidding me" territory here.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
> there's a whole new generation in US colleges that starts crying incontrollably when a law professor utters the word "rape", for example. Constructing a straw man to prove your point is not conducive to good argumentation. People do not "cry uncontrollably" when certain words are mentioned. People are asking that works containing graphic depictions of things likely to cause severe distress to very small segments of the population be labelled in some cases, so that people in those groups can prepare themselves. People are also asking that others not use extremely offensive language towards those in minority groups who've had to suffer through it their whole lives. These are not unreasonable requests. They are a minimum standard of human decency and consideration. > This might boil down to a cultural difference, but to this European guy Neo-reactionaries exist in all cultures, I assure you.
- renaudg 11y ago
  I really, really wish I could admit guilt and tell you that I've indeed had to construct a strawman because my point required it. Unfortunately, I didn't because it doesn't. Either you are uninformed about the current levels of insanity reached in PC circles, or you belong to them and hope that nobody will notice what you guys are up to. I will give just 2 examples, and let everyone else be the judge. http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rape-law http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rap... One teacher I know was recently asked by a student not to use the word “violate” in class—as in “Does this conduct violate the law?”—because the word was triggering. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/566202/NUS-jazz-hands-clapping-anxiety-feminists http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/566202/NUS-jazz-hands-clapp... The NUS Women's Campaign tweeted from its official account: "Some delegates are requesting that we move to jazz hands rather than clapping, as it's triggering anxiety. Please be mindful!" Who needs strawmen when reality is way more entertaining ? I will re-iterate that people like you, advocating that this behaviour can in any way or shape be construed as reasonable or a mark of progress, are doing a disservice to victims of actual traumatic events (more to the point : spitting in their face) by trying to liken petty little everyday traumas that everyone goes through (you guys call them "microaggressions") to what a war veteran or an actual rape victim (I said "rape", not "catcall" btw, notice the difference?) actually have had to endure. Anyway, I can't wait to see how "snowflake generation" does in the real world. Have a nice evening.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    > I really, really wish I could admit guilt and tell you that I've indeed had to construct a strawman because my point required it. Unfortunately, I didn't because it doesn't. Either you are uninformed about the current levels of insanity reached in PC circles, or you belong to them and hope that nobody will notice what you guys are up to. > I will give just 2 examples, and let everyone else be the judge. > http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rap.. http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rap.... One teacher I know was recently asked by a student not to use the word “violate” in class—as in “Does this conduct violate the law?”—because the word was triggering. One single student had a problem with the word "violate", which isn't entirely unsurprising. This word is frequently used in relation to acts of physical and sexual violence. It might seem ridiculous to you that single words can cause problems for some people, but trauma can be like that. If you've suffered something traumatic, a word or phrase might remind you of it. Wouldn't that make you uncomfortable? Is there really anything wrong with asking a professor to avoid that specific phrase, so you can concentrate better on your work? It doesn't prevent them talking about the subject. It's just a tiny kindness they are asking for. And, in fact, slurs are also single words. Society has learned to stop using them. Where's the uproar? So, your example doesn't live up to your statement: > a whole new generation in US colleges that starts crying incontrollably when a law professor utters the word "rape" Well, this isn't "a whole new generation", it's one student in one school who has a problem with one word. And there's not a "generation" 'crying incontrollably'. There's one student who's having trouble with it. Yes, other students at other schools also sometimes have similar issues. Still doesn't meet your statement. Some people have specific needs. What's wrong with accommodating them? > http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/566202/NUS-jazz-hands-clapp.. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/566202/NUS-jazz-hands-clapp.... The NUS Women's Campaign tweeted from its official account: "Some delegates are requesting that we move to jazz hands rather than clapping, as it's triggering anxiety. Please be mindful". Certain people at an event had an issue with loud noise, and politely asked that others express applause in a quieter fashion. This doesn't even have anything to do with political correctness. ---- I still consider the situation you have described to be a straw man. You are vastly exaggerating the nature, scale and consequences of this supposed problem. Occasionally, people are in the unfortunate position where certain small things cause them problems. They politely ask for people not to do those things. This is usually referred to as 'kindness' or 'being considerate'. > I will re-iterate that people like you, advocating that this behaviour can in any way or shape be construed as reasonable or a mark of progress, are doing a disservice to victims of actual traumatic events (or more to the point : spitting in their face). Please explain to me how, for example, it is somehow a bad thing to not warn someone who has survived rape that the book they are about to read contains a graphic depiction of it? This is a realistic example. It happens all the time. > I can't wait to see how "snowflake generation" does in the real world. Have a nice evening. They'll do wonderfully. Because they are creating a world that is just very slightly more considerate than the one before. Even if the world doesn't change, they'll do the same as they always have. People who've suffered trauma have always existed. People who are part of discriminated-against groups have always existed. They just might have a very slightly easier time now.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > People are asking that works containing graphic depictions of things likely to cause severe distress to very small segments of the population be labelled in some cases, so that people in those groups can prepare themselves. The thing is, with how triggering actually works, pretty much any kind of sensory stimulus is likely to cause severe distress to some very small segment of the population -- and triggers are as likely to be color patterns or other non-verbal visual cues, smells, non-verbal auditory stimuli, etc., as words presented orally or in writing (and as likely to be associated with oblique descriptions as graphic ones); the intensity and frequency of demands for trigger warnings on the expression of particular ideas, or in particular styles of expression, are not rationally related to the propensity for an actual triggering response in the population, but they are associated with the political and ideological sensitivities of the groups making the demands. Discussion of the validity of those political and ideological sensitivities aside, the use of "triggering" as the rationale for the warning labels is not consistent with the actual demands.

by renaudg 11y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

> there's a whole new generation in US colleges that starts crying incontrollably when a law professor utters the word "rape", for example. Constructing a straw man to prove your point is not conducive to good argumentation. People do not "cry uncontrollably" when certain words are mentioned. People are asking that works containing graphic depictions of things likely to cause severe distress to very small segments of the population be labelled in some cases, so that people in those groups can prepare themselves. People are also asking that others not use extremely offensive language towards those in minority groups who've had to suffer through it their whole lives. These are not unreasonable requests. They are a minimum standard of human decency and consideration. > This might boil down to a cultural difference, but to this European guy Neo-reactionaries exist in all cultures, I assure you.

renaudg 11y ago
I really, really wish I could admit guilt and tell you that I've indeed had to construct a strawman because my point required it. Unfortunately, I didn't because it doesn't. Either you are uninformed about the current levels of insanity reached in PC circles, or you belong to them and hope that nobody will notice what you guys are up to. I will give just 2 examples, and let everyone else be the judge. http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rape-law http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rap... One teacher I know was recently asked by a student not to use the word “violate” in class—as in “Does this conduct violate the law?”—because the word was triggering. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/566202/NUS-jazz-hands-clapping-anxiety-feminists http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/566202/NUS-jazz-hands-clapp... The NUS Women's Campaign tweeted from its official account: "Some delegates are requesting that we move to jazz hands rather than clapping, as it's triggering anxiety. Please be mindful!" Who needs strawmen when reality is way more entertaining ? I will re-iterate that people like you, advocating that this behaviour can in any way or shape be construed as reasonable or a mark of progress, are doing a disservice to victims of actual traumatic events (more to the point : spitting in their face) by trying to liken petty little everyday traumas that everyone goes through (you guys call them "microaggressions") to what a war veteran or an actual rape victim (I said "rape", not "catcall" btw, notice the difference?) actually have had to endure. Anyway, I can't wait to see how "snowflake generation" does in the real world. Have a nice evening.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  > I really, really wish I could admit guilt and tell you that I've indeed had to construct a strawman because my point required it. Unfortunately, I didn't because it doesn't. Either you are uninformed about the current levels of insanity reached in PC circles, or you belong to them and hope that nobody will notice what you guys are up to. > I will give just 2 examples, and let everyone else be the judge. > http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rap.. http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trouble-teaching-rap.... One teacher I know was recently asked by a student not to use the word “violate” in class—as in “Does this conduct violate the law?”—because the word was triggering. One single student had a problem with the word "violate", which isn't entirely unsurprising. This word is frequently used in relation to acts of physical and sexual violence. It might seem ridiculous to you that single words can cause problems for some people, but trauma can be like that. If you've suffered something traumatic, a word or phrase might remind you of it. Wouldn't that make you uncomfortable? Is there really anything wrong with asking a professor to avoid that specific phrase, so you can concentrate better on your work? It doesn't prevent them talking about the subject. It's just a tiny kindness they are asking for. And, in fact, slurs are also single words. Society has learned to stop using them. Where's the uproar? So, your example doesn't live up to your statement: > a whole new generation in US colleges that starts crying incontrollably when a law professor utters the word "rape" Well, this isn't "a whole new generation", it's one student in one school who has a problem with one word. And there's not a "generation" 'crying incontrollably'. There's one student who's having trouble with it. Yes, other students at other schools also sometimes have similar issues. Still doesn't meet your statement. Some people have specific needs. What's wrong with accommodating them? > http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/566202/NUS-jazz-hands-clapp.. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/566202/NUS-jazz-hands-clapp.... The NUS Women's Campaign tweeted from its official account: "Some delegates are requesting that we move to jazz hands rather than clapping, as it's triggering anxiety. Please be mindful". Certain people at an event had an issue with loud noise, and politely asked that others express applause in a quieter fashion. This doesn't even have anything to do with political correctness. ---- I still consider the situation you have described to be a straw man. You are vastly exaggerating the nature, scale and consequences of this supposed problem. Occasionally, people are in the unfortunate position where certain small things cause them problems. They politely ask for people not to do those things. This is usually referred to as 'kindness' or 'being considerate'. > I will re-iterate that people like you, advocating that this behaviour can in any way or shape be construed as reasonable or a mark of progress, are doing a disservice to victims of actual traumatic events (or more to the point : spitting in their face). Please explain to me how, for example, it is somehow a bad thing to not warn someone who has survived rape that the book they are about to read contains a graphic depiction of it? This is a realistic example. It happens all the time. > I can't wait to see how "snowflake generation" does in the real world. Have a nice evening. They'll do wonderfully. Because they are creating a world that is just very slightly more considerate than the one before. Even if the world doesn't change, they'll do the same as they always have. People who've suffered trauma have always existed. People who are part of discriminated-against groups have always existed. They just might have a very slightly easier time now.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> People are asking that works containing graphic depictions of things likely to cause severe distress to very small segments of the population be labelled in some cases, so that people in those groups can prepare themselves. The thing is, with how triggering actually works, pretty much any kind of sensory stimulus is likely to cause severe distress to some very small segment of the population -- and triggers are as likely to be color patterns or other non-verbal visual cues, smells, non-verbal auditory stimuli, etc., as words presented orally or in writing (and as likely to be associated with oblique descriptions as graphic ones); the intensity and frequency of demands for trigger warnings on the expression of particular ideas, or in particular styles of expression, are not rationally related to the propensity for an actual triggering response in the population, but they are associated with the political and ideological sensitivities of the groups making the demands. Discussion of the validity of those political and ideological sensitivities aside, the use of "triggering" as the rationale for the warning labels is not consistent with the actual demands.