4 ms·

California Rules: Uber's Drivers Are Employees, Not Contractors

7 points by ranit 11y ago

kbenson 11y ago
> According to the administrative law judge who heard the first appeal, Uber has sole discretion over fares, and can charge drivers a cancellation fee if they choose not to take a ride, prohibit drivers from picking up passengers not using the app and suspend or deactivate drivers' accounts. > The company argues that drivers want independent contractor status because they value the chance to be their own boss. If you are an individual contractor and you have one client, and that client can prevent you from taking others, fine you, put you on probation, and directly intervene in you work while it's ongoing, you are not a contractor, you are an employee. This is the reason for labor laws, to prevent companies from taking advantage of employees. Whether the employees have been tricked into foregoing some of their rights because they think it's better due to marketing spin is irrelevant.
- bduerst 11y ago
  Does Uber try to prevent drivers from also being Lyft drivers?
  - kbenson 11y ago
    > prohibit drivers from picking up passengers not using the app To me, whether that applies specifically to Lyft or not is irrelevant. It probably doesn't, as Lyft can actually defend itself, so Uber preventing Lyft pickups would be escalating their battle to a level neither of them probably want. If other types of fares can be prevented, then that can be viewed as a sort of implicit business agreement between Uber and Lyft, not as evidence they don't prevent certain fares.
- therobot24 11y ago
  > Whether the employees have been tricked into foregoing some of their rights because they think it's better due to marketing spin is irrelevant. I constantly see the same argument over and over and over - they make their own hours, they use their own equipment, they can also work for Lyft, etc. Those are all traits of a contractor, but it doesn't defend all the practices that come with being an independent contractor. From the IRS website (http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Defined http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ...): > The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done. > You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed. It's pretty clear that Uber is controlling the details.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    > I constantly see the same argument over and over and over - they make their own hours, they use their own equipment, they can also work for Lyft, etc. Those are all traits of a contractor, but it doesn't defend all the practices that come with being an independent contractor. Exactly. My point (in case it was unclear, as I was unsure if you were just reinforcing my point or misinterpreting it) is that just because a driver has "independent contractor" status which Uber argues drivers desire, it doesn't really mean anything if many of the actual benefits of being an independent contractor are removed. The labor laws regarding this are there for exactly this issue. A lot of companies try to reclassify employees as independent contractors because it's cheaper in many ways, so there are laws in place to prevent this abuse. Unfortunately, it seems every few years there's a new way to circumvent those laws which needs to be addressed.
    - therobot24 11y ago
      > Exactly. My point (in case it was unclear, as I was unsure if you were just reinforcing my point or misinterpreting it) I was trying to reinforce it. > A lot of companies try to reclassify employees as independent contractors because it's cheaper in many ways Which is why i support Uber for using it - they have a good business model that is really changing the industry. I remember calling a taxi and maybe one showing up an hour later, now i can get a ride in minutes. > Unfortunately, it seems every few years there's a new way to circumvent those laws which needs to be addressed. Which is why i support the class action lawsuit against Uber for abusing it.
linkydinkandyou 11y ago
Let's see: They set their own hours, they can work for anyone, including other ride companies at the same time, and they use their own equipment. If they're employees then everyone is.

7 points by ranit 11y ago

> According to the administrative law judge who heard the first appeal, Uber has sole discretion over fares, and can charge drivers a cancellation fee if they choose not to take a ride, prohibit drivers from picking up passengers not using the app and suspend or deactivate drivers' accounts. > The company argues that drivers want independent contractor status because they value the chance to be their own boss. If you are an individual contractor and you have one client, and that client can prevent you from taking others, fine you, put you on probation, and directly intervene in you work while it's ongoing, you are not a contractor, you are an employee. This is the reason for labor laws, to prevent companies from taking advantage of employees. Whether the employees have been tricked into foregoing some of their rights because they think it's better due to marketing spin is irrelevant.

bduerst 11y ago
Does Uber try to prevent drivers from also being Lyft drivers?
- kbenson 11y ago
  > prohibit drivers from picking up passengers not using the app To me, whether that applies specifically to Lyft or not is irrelevant. It probably doesn't, as Lyft can actually defend itself, so Uber preventing Lyft pickups would be escalating their battle to a level neither of them probably want. If other types of fares can be prevented, then that can be viewed as a sort of implicit business agreement between Uber and Lyft, not as evidence they don't prevent certain fares.
therobot24 11y ago
> Whether the employees have been tricked into foregoing some of their rights because they think it's better due to marketing spin is irrelevant. I constantly see the same argument over and over and over - they make their own hours, they use their own equipment, they can also work for Lyft, etc. Those are all traits of a contractor, but it doesn't defend all the practices that come with being an independent contractor. From the IRS website (http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Defined http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ...): > The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done. > You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed. It's pretty clear that Uber is controlling the details.
- kbenson 11y ago
  > I constantly see the same argument over and over and over - they make their own hours, they use their own equipment, they can also work for Lyft, etc. Those are all traits of a contractor, but it doesn't defend all the practices that come with being an independent contractor. Exactly. My point (in case it was unclear, as I was unsure if you were just reinforcing my point or misinterpreting it) is that just because a driver has "independent contractor" status which Uber argues drivers desire, it doesn't really mean anything if many of the actual benefits of being an independent contractor are removed. The labor laws regarding this are there for exactly this issue. A lot of companies try to reclassify employees as independent contractors because it's cheaper in many ways, so there are laws in place to prevent this abuse. Unfortunately, it seems every few years there's a new way to circumvent those laws which needs to be addressed.
  - therobot24 11y ago
    > Exactly. My point (in case it was unclear, as I was unsure if you were just reinforcing my point or misinterpreting it) I was trying to reinforce it. > A lot of companies try to reclassify employees as independent contractors because it's cheaper in many ways Which is why i support Uber for using it - they have a good business model that is really changing the industry. I remember calling a taxi and maybe one showing up an hour later, now i can get a ride in minutes. > Unfortunately, it seems every few years there's a new way to circumvent those laws which needs to be addressed. Which is why i support the class action lawsuit against Uber for abusing it.

linkydinkandyou 11y ago

Let's see: They set their own hours, they can work for anyone, including other ride companies at the same time, and they use their own equipment. If they're employees then everyone is.