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This: We’re beginning to see traffic volumes of people we haven’t seen on our subways since the late 1940s. That’s before the big surge in car traffic. sounde

by unwind 11y ago

This: We’re beginning to see traffic volumes of people we haven’t seen on our subways since the late 1940s. That’s before the big surge in car traffic. sounded very odd to me; it just went against my bias that "everything increases". Certainly the population of NYC must have grown significantly in the past 65 years, and it sounds just weird that all newcomers became drivers. I tried to find statistics, but the best I got was from Wikipedia which says: Ridership continues to increase, and on September 23, 2014, more than 6.1 million people rode the subway system, establishing the highest single-day ridership since ridership was regularly monitored in 1985.. Which seems to support my thinking but misses out on ~35 years. Am I missing something?

melling 11y ago
There are a million more people in NYC now than in 1940. The population hasn't always increased. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_Cit...
untog 11y ago
Certainly the population of NYC must have grown significantly in the past 65 years Economic stagnation in the 70s meant that the population of NYC has not always been growing. And it definitely hasn't always been the city it is today - the subway had a terrible reputation in the 80s as a place of crime, so many didn't take it.
chipsy 11y ago
According to Wikipedia's stats, the population of New York declined slightly between 1950-1960, recovered 1960-1970, and then declined again, more sharply, 1970-1980. The big growth years started after 1980 - i.e. around the same time their ridership tracking began. Correspondingly, the cultural legacy of New York as it started the 80's was one of a city in disarray with trashed streets and little public order or prospects for a future - great material for gritty films about crime and societal breakdown. The economic situation and mood started changing over the course of the decade, and the image of "Disneyfied New York" finally emerged in the 90's under Guliani's mayorship. So, going back to the original question, New York went through a rough period following WWII, and that combined with a broad switch to cars accounts for changes in ridership.
mercutio2 11y ago
You're missing the precipitous post WW2 drop in ridership. A discussion of this curve, with a link to the ridership graph: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2bk7f5/new_york_city_subway_annual_ridership_19042013_oc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2bk7f5/new...
- Zach_the_Lizard 11y ago
  I understand ridership declined due to things like crime, growth of the suburbs, etc., but how much of an impact did things like tearing out the elevated rails in Manhattan have on these ridership numbers? What would they have looked like had they not been torn down?
potatolicious 11y ago
Many parts of NYC depopulated heavily during suburban flight, in particular Manhattan - the regional population has always trended up but many people left for the newly developed suburbs following the war. Manhattan's population for example peaked at 2.2m between 1910-1920 and still has never been that high since. Current estimates are around 1.6m. Population density in Manhattan has decreased dramatically, largely owing to suburban flight and an increased demand for quality of life - it was 21 people per 5,000 sq ft in 1910[1], it is 12 people now. One funny thing about all of this is that the old brick buildings that are such prized real estate nowadays used to be low-rent tenements, considered blights on the city, and where a million dollar bachelor pad now sits multiple families used to fit in the same space. The pattern extends to other parts of the city also - Brooklyn peaked at 2.7m between 1940-1950 and rapidly depopulated afterwards, even now the borough only has ~2.5m people. The depopulation is a large part of NYC's reputation in the 60s, 70s, and 80s as a dangerous place - abandoned buildings and depopulated neighborhoods contributed to crime and general decay, though of course cheap rent also contributed to a dramatic surge of artistic achievement. tl;dr: NYC depopulated heavily after 1950, and didn't really start recovering until the 1990s, and even then NYC's population didn't start growing rapidly until the early 2000s when the combination of shifting preference towards urban lifestyles and lowering crime made a large influx of population possible. The resurgence of American cities is, in the grand scheme of things, an extremely recent phenomenon. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/03/01/realestate/manhattans-population-density-past-and-present.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/03/01/realestate/man...
- rmxt 11y ago
  Where are your numbers for Brooklyn coming from? The population was greater in the 1940s and 1950s, but it is still well over 2 million, and still the most populous borough in NYC. (As it seems to have been since 1930s.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_Yor...
  - potatolicious 11y ago

by unwind 11y ago

melling 11y ago

There are a million more people in NYC now than in 1940. The population hasn't always increased. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_Cit...

untog 11y ago

Certainly the population of NYC must have grown significantly in the past 65 years Economic stagnation in the 70s meant that the population of NYC has not always been growing. And it definitely hasn't always been the city it is today - the subway had a terrible reputation in the 80s as a place of crime, so many didn't take it.

chipsy 11y ago

According to Wikipedia's stats, the population of New York declined slightly between 1950-1960, recovered 1960-1970, and then declined again, more sharply, 1970-1980. The big growth years started after 1980 - i.e. around the same time their ridership tracking began. Correspondingly, the cultural legacy of New York as it started the 80's was one of a city in disarray with trashed streets and little public order or prospects for a future - great material for gritty films about crime and societal breakdown. The economic situation and mood started changing over the course of the decade, and the image of "Disneyfied New York" finally emerged in the 90's under Guliani's mayorship. So, going back to the original question, New York went through a rough period following WWII, and that combined with a broad switch to cars accounts for changes in ridership.

mercutio2 11y ago

You're missing the precipitous post WW2 drop in ridership. A discussion of this curve, with a link to the ridership graph: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2bk7f5/new_york_city_subway_annual_ridership_19042013_oc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2bk7f5/new...

Zach_the_Lizard 11y ago
I understand ridership declined due to things like crime, growth of the suburbs, etc., but how much of an impact did things like tearing out the elevated rails in Manhattan have on these ridership numbers? What would they have looked like had they not been torn down?

potatolicious 11y ago

Many parts of NYC depopulated heavily during suburban flight, in particular Manhattan - the regional population has always trended up but many people left for the newly developed suburbs following the war. Manhattan's population for example peaked at 2.2m between 1910-1920 and still has never been that high since. Current estimates are around 1.6m. Population density in Manhattan has decreased dramatically, largely owing to suburban flight and an increased demand for quality of life - it was 21 people per 5,000 sq ft in 1910[1], it is 12 people now. One funny thing about all of this is that the old brick buildings that are such prized real estate nowadays used to be low-rent tenements, considered blights on the city, and where a million dollar bachelor pad now sits multiple families used to fit in the same space. The pattern extends to other parts of the city also - Brooklyn peaked at 2.7m between 1940-1950 and rapidly depopulated afterwards, even now the borough only has ~2.5m people. The depopulation is a large part of NYC's reputation in the 60s, 70s, and 80s as a dangerous place - abandoned buildings and depopulated neighborhoods contributed to crime and general decay, though of course cheap rent also contributed to a dramatic surge of artistic achievement. tl;dr: NYC depopulated heavily after 1950, and didn't really start recovering until the 1990s, and even then NYC's population didn't start growing rapidly until the early 2000s when the combination of shifting preference towards urban lifestyles and lowering crime made a large influx of population possible. The resurgence of American cities is, in the grand scheme of things, an extremely recent phenomenon. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/03/01/realestate/manhattans-population-density-past-and-present.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/03/01/realestate/man...

rmxt 11y ago
Where are your numbers for Brooklyn coming from? The population was greater in the 1940s and 1950s, but it is still well over 2 million, and still the most populous borough in NYC. (As it seems to have been since 1930s.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_Yor...
- potatolicious 11y ago