5 ms·

Right, blame the guy for being exploited like so many others. 1/ He did not quit or made any ultimatum. He acted on what was promised, nothing wrong with that.

by Mikushi 11y ago

Right, blame the guy for being exploited like so many others. 1/ He did not quit or made any ultimatum. He acted on what was promised, nothing wrong with that. But right you should always lower your head and submit to the startups and their heads. 2/ Typical protection of abusive companies by telling employees who are being openly screwed : "Deal with it". Such a healthy advice, lets not question the ethics and working of most of the tech sector who all have been dipping their toes in shady hiring practices. 3/ Easy to say when you're not living paycheck to paycheck and you see your dream slowly crumble before your eyes because of a company's unacceptable behaviour (acceptable to certain on HN though who probably think the CEO was right). WHile 4 & 5 are valid, your first advices put the entirety of the blame on OP, when in fact that blame lies entirely on the CEO and startup in question. If I were in his position I would have made sure that their name are public and known to prevent others from being exploited.

AndrewKemendo 11y ago
While you are right to point out that the OP was being exploited, it also doesn't matter in this case. Nothing you posted will actually help this guy get a job. The reality is, that this is the market that exists. All great and valuable to rally against bad practices and push back where possible. Even better to start your own shop and create a better environment. At the end of the day though, you have to do whatever it takes to make things work - regardless of how fair or equitable things are.
annnnd 11y ago
This is not how I understood the parent. He doesn't put blame, he just gives advice (which is great btw).
johanneskanybal 11y ago
What this man needs is good career advice and smarten up about life in general not some downward spiral of focusing on being victimized. I symphatize too but that's close to worthless if not straight up harmfull in this situation.
calibraxis 11y ago
> If I were in his position I would have made sure that their name are public and known to prevent others from being exploited. I respect and agree with your points, but do not agree 100% with this advice. Exploiters are the default. (Just the higher up you go, the nicer face they show you. Because you can hurt them more.) I only agree with this advice if you can do it without suffering serious blowback. I try to carefully assist non-dev coworkers screwed by their bosses. This includes talking with crying coworkers who swear revenge because their boss humiliated them and thieved money — and they can't just quit because the next company may be even worse. One thing that helps is understanding this is an institutional problem. Not necessarily a "bad boss", nor their fault. Even with completely different people, the overall functioning would be pretty much the same. (That's why I keep recommending books like "Disciplined Minds".) Then we take effective steps to make their resume look good, increase their bargaining power, learning tech/PM/etc skills, start winning internal company politics...
- PavlovsCat 11y ago
  That's a valid temporary workaround to an institutional problem. And of course, someone with family in a dire situation needs just that, not to be a martyr for whatever is "right". But generally speaking, I wonder what solutions rather than workarounds would be, or at least small steps towards them. In the end, I see no reason to believe that exploitation doesn't just waste a whole lot of resources and time, while also utterly destroying untold amounts of human dignity; and the more people put up with it, the harder it gets for those who resist. This is not intended as a slight against your or anyone's advice here, seriously. But I chose my nick for a reason, and when I read things like scrubbing one's online presence from anything that suggests the sun doesn't shine out of one's butt 24/7, the hair on the back of my neck does stand up a little bit. The idea most people involved in such... theatre?... might actually be a great person "privately", but just feel forced to "play the game", makes this even more unsettling. If nobody feels responsible for causing it, who will fix it? The people who suffer a lot from it are too busy suffering or even dying, the overlap between finding this unbearable and having the means to fight it seems rather small.. sorry for ranting, but I guess with so much solid advice already given I thought I might as well :)
vellum 11y ago
I think the CEO's a sociopath, and I could care less if he gets shamed like that dentist that shot Cecil the Lion. But the OP is supporting a wife and 4 kids, so I'm giving him tactical advice. >That I’d been told $75k was reasonable, and that I would have to look for work elsewhere if it was going to be $44k. That sounds like an ultimatum. The problem is he's bluffing. He gets his bluff called, and then what? He's out on the street, in a worse place then he started from. My advice is not to bluff. Get a job first, don't look back. When you take a counter-offer, you also run the risk of having them get resentful, and firing you the first chance possible. >2/ Typical protection of abusive companies by telling employees who are being openly screwed This is based on what I've seen. I think companies should pay their employees market wages. But most companies will only give you a 5% raise, not a 20k one. If you know how to consistently get companies to give you a 20k raise, please share. >3/ Easy to say when you're not living paycheck to paycheck and you see your dream slowly crumble before your eyes I'm being realistic. Companies don't like hiring people who will take any job. He doesn't have to walk in there like Don Draper. Being nervous is fine. A lot of people get anxious. But going in there with a sob story isn't going to help his case. Even if they don’t turn him away, they can still use his living situation to lowball his salary.
- mcv 11y ago
  He wasn't bluffing, he was being honest. Being naive. Against a sociopath boss. He "would have to look" elsewhere; it's announcing an intention, which is honest, but also a bad idea against an evil boss. His honesty is a sign of loyalty, which is clearly unwarranted with a boss that's only looking for ways to screw you. The problem is that a single developer has no power over an asshole boss. The only thing we can do is protect ourselves with exactly this kind of tactical advice. But by all means, also protest for better worker protections to prevent people from being abused like that. I feel like asking for naming and shaming the bad company so others can steer clear, but that's probably going to bite you in the ass. Suck it up, and name and shame them in 5 years, after you've got your life back on a solid road and well out of his reach.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  "I think the CEO's a sociopath, and I could care less if he gets shamed like that dentist that shot Cecil the Lion." I do care. I want him to be shamed. I want his entire business to fall apart, so that the CEO finds himself in the same position as this guy.
throwaway5752 11y ago
"If I were in his position I would have made sure that their name are public and known to prevent others from being exploited" Because what an unemployed, self-taught person with a non-working spouse (and four children, one of whom is special needs) is a defamation lawsuit on top of things? I assume the poster is US-based and their are just certain realities of the legal system. Even if the suit is ultimately overturned, what kind of representation is he going to be able to afford if he is borrowing from family and his family is skipping meals? The state of corporate ethics or even the particulars of who is to blame in his former job is completely orthogonal to his current situation.
- mcv 11y ago
  I agree. As tempting as naming and shaming sounds, it's only ever going to hurt people. Hopefully most of that will be on the boss (who richly deserves it), but some of it may land on the OP, and he really has other things on his mind right now. Accept the shitty boss as a learning experience and get a better job at a better company. Maybe if the boss has a superior to report to, or there's some neutral person at the company where you can address these things, you could try going there, but it doesn't sound like it's that kind of company, and it's unlikely to lead to a job with a raise, and that's really all that should concern you right now.

by Mikushi 11y ago

AndrewKemendo 11y ago

While you are right to point out that the OP was being exploited, it also doesn't matter in this case. Nothing you posted will actually help this guy get a job. The reality is, that this is the market that exists. All great and valuable to rally against bad practices and push back where possible. Even better to start your own shop and create a better environment. At the end of the day though, you have to do whatever it takes to make things work - regardless of how fair or equitable things are.

annnnd 11y ago

This is not how I understood the parent. He doesn't put blame, he just gives advice (which is great btw).

johanneskanybal 11y ago

What this man needs is good career advice and smarten up about life in general not some downward spiral of focusing on being victimized. I symphatize too but that's close to worthless if not straight up harmfull in this situation.

calibraxis 11y ago

> If I were in his position I would have made sure that their name are public and known to prevent others from being exploited. I respect and agree with your points, but do not agree 100% with this advice. Exploiters are the default. (Just the higher up you go, the nicer face they show you. Because you can hurt them more.) I only agree with this advice if you can do it without suffering serious blowback. I try to carefully assist non-dev coworkers screwed by their bosses. This includes talking with crying coworkers who swear revenge because their boss humiliated them and thieved money — and they can't just quit because the next company may be even worse. One thing that helps is understanding this is an institutional problem. Not necessarily a "bad boss", nor their fault. Even with completely different people, the overall functioning would be pretty much the same. (That's why I keep recommending books like "Disciplined Minds".) Then we take effective steps to make their resume look good, increase their bargaining power, learning tech/PM/etc skills, start winning internal company politics...

PavlovsCat 11y ago
That's a valid temporary workaround to an institutional problem. And of course, someone with family in a dire situation needs just that, not to be a martyr for whatever is "right". But generally speaking, I wonder what solutions rather than workarounds would be, or at least small steps towards them. In the end, I see no reason to believe that exploitation doesn't just waste a whole lot of resources and time, while also utterly destroying untold amounts of human dignity; and the more people put up with it, the harder it gets for those who resist. This is not intended as a slight against your or anyone's advice here, seriously. But I chose my nick for a reason, and when I read things like scrubbing one's online presence from anything that suggests the sun doesn't shine out of one's butt 24/7, the hair on the back of my neck does stand up a little bit. The idea most people involved in such... theatre?... might actually be a great person "privately", but just feel forced to "play the game", makes this even more unsettling. If nobody feels responsible for causing it, who will fix it? The people who suffer a lot from it are too busy suffering or even dying, the overlap between finding this unbearable and having the means to fight it seems rather small.. sorry for ranting, but I guess with so much solid advice already given I thought I might as well :)

vellum 11y ago

I think the CEO's a sociopath, and I could care less if he gets shamed like that dentist that shot Cecil the Lion. But the OP is supporting a wife and 4 kids, so I'm giving him tactical advice. >That I’d been told $75k was reasonable, and that I would have to look for work elsewhere if it was going to be $44k. That sounds like an ultimatum. The problem is he's bluffing. He gets his bluff called, and then what? He's out on the street, in a worse place then he started from. My advice is not to bluff. Get a job first, don't look back. When you take a counter-offer, you also run the risk of having them get resentful, and firing you the first chance possible. >2/ Typical protection of abusive companies by telling employees who are being openly screwed This is based on what I've seen. I think companies should pay their employees market wages. But most companies will only give you a 5% raise, not a 20k one. If you know how to consistently get companies to give you a 20k raise, please share. >3/ Easy to say when you're not living paycheck to paycheck and you see your dream slowly crumble before your eyes I'm being realistic. Companies don't like hiring people who will take any job. He doesn't have to walk in there like Don Draper. Being nervous is fine. A lot of people get anxious. But going in there with a sob story isn't going to help his case. Even if they don’t turn him away, they can still use his living situation to lowball his salary.

mcv 11y ago
He wasn't bluffing, he was being honest. Being naive. Against a sociopath boss. He "would have to look" elsewhere; it's announcing an intention, which is honest, but also a bad idea against an evil boss. His honesty is a sign of loyalty, which is clearly unwarranted with a boss that's only looking for ways to screw you. The problem is that a single developer has no power over an asshole boss. The only thing we can do is protect ourselves with exactly this kind of tactical advice. But by all means, also protest for better worker protections to prevent people from being abused like that. I feel like asking for naming and shaming the bad company so others can steer clear, but that's probably going to bite you in the ass. Suck it up, and name and shame them in 5 years, after you've got your life back on a solid road and well out of his reach.
s73v3r 11y ago
"I think the CEO's a sociopath, and I could care less if he gets shamed like that dentist that shot Cecil the Lion." I do care. I want him to be shamed. I want his entire business to fall apart, so that the CEO finds himself in the same position as this guy.

throwaway5752 11y ago

"If I were in his position I would have made sure that their name are public and known to prevent others from being exploited" Because what an unemployed, self-taught person with a non-working spouse (and four children, one of whom is special needs) is a defamation lawsuit on top of things? I assume the poster is US-based and their are just certain realities of the legal system. Even if the suit is ultimately overturned, what kind of representation is he going to be able to afford if he is borrowing from family and his family is skipping meals? The state of corporate ethics or even the particulars of who is to blame in his former job is completely orthogonal to his current situation.

mcv 11y ago
I agree. As tempting as naming and shaming sounds, it's only ever going to hurt people. Hopefully most of that will be on the boss (who richly deserves it), but some of it may land on the OP, and he really has other things on his mind right now. Accept the shitty boss as a learning experience and get a better job at a better company. Maybe if the boss has a superior to report to, or there's some neutral person at the company where you can address these things, you could try going there, but it doesn't sound like it's that kind of company, and it's unlikely to lead to a job with a raise, and that's really all that should concern you right now.