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It sounds like you have done this in the past, and it is blackmail. And I understand that you don't want to see yourself as a blackmailer. "I'm more worth tha

It sounds like you have done this in the past, and it is blackmail. And I understand that you don't want to see yourself as a blackmailer. "I'm more worth than that" and leaving is standing up. "Give me more money or I leave" is blackmail. "Regarding your Wikipedia quote, leaving a job in which you are abused and underpaid is not at all unjustified." Leaving is not the blackmail part, threatening to leave is the blackmail part.

icebraining 11y ago
First, blackmail is about information, so if anything it would be extortion. And it's not extortion because the "threat" was not wrongful; the boss is not his owner nor is he entitled to his work. The word you're looking for is haggling, and it's a common part of negotiations.
- DanBC 11y ago
  But "give me more money or I'll leave" is a bad way to go about haggling, and is likely to lead to the employee leaving. "I'm worth more than you're paying" is better, even though the employer and employee both know that "and if yu don't pay me more I'll leave" is an unspoken part of that sentence. HN regularly mentions the book "how to win friends and influence people" or talks about hacking various interpersonal processes. This is just an interpersonal hack. Saying "give me more money or I'll leave" causes many - but admittedly not all - managers to respond with "go ahead and leave then", even when the manager knows that replacing the leavig employee will require a higher wage than the employee is currently getting and some expenditure on the recruitment process. People are not rational and they do mot make rational decisions. We know that management, and recruitment, is very broken.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Oh, for sure, it's not a good negotiation tactic, no argument there.
gliese1337 11y ago
"Give me more money or I leave" is not blackmail. That is called an "ultimatum". Blackmail is defined as a demand for money in exchange for not revealing compromising or injurious information. "Give me more money or I will publish these naked photos of you" is blackmail. One of those is illegal. The other one isn't.
- hwstar 11y ago
  Think of it like that Jaba the Hutt/thermal detonator scene in Star Wars episode 6: "This bounty hunter is my kind of scum, Fearless and Inventive" When dealing with sociopaths,, to negotiate from a position of strength; you need to have an offer in hand from another employer, because it is very likely that you could be fired on the spot when you confront this type of individual. The sociopath doesn't care, and will just find someone else to exploit.
eyko 11y ago
No, it's not blackmail. It's a salary negotiation.
chrisbennet 11y ago
It's called negotiation. I can see how it might seem threatening to someone who feels threatened by the thought of an employee standing up for himself.
sgk284 11y ago
Have you never negotiated anything? This isn't blackmail. He's leveraging an asset (his talents) for compensation. If Netflix is negotiating licensing rights to a movie and the owner of the rights says "We want more money or we won't license this to you." that's not blackmail. It's negotiating a deal. In this case the guy is saying "I want more money or I won't work for you any more." It is absolutely the correct call. He was being taken advantage of. He used his only point of leverage to get a fairer deal.
etchalon 11y ago
You have absolutely no idea what the word blackmail means. What he did was give his boss an entirely reasonable ultimatum.
skissane 11y ago
Blackmail is a crime in many jurisdictions whose legal systems derive from England. The precise definition varies, but a classic example would be if I knew you had committed a crime, and threatened to report it to the authorities unless you paid me. See for example 18 US Code 873 - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/873 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/873 No one would ever be found guilty of blackmail for simply saying "Give me a pay rise or else I'll resign". (But, "Give me a pay rise or else I'll report your illegal activities to the authorities" would be blackmail.) The essence of blackmail is demanding money for an illegitimate reason - money which you are not legitimately due - and there is nothing inherently illegitimate about demanding a pay rise. It simply means that you put a different value on your own labour than your employer currently does, and if you and they cannot reach agreement on that value, you'll look for someone else with whom you agree more.
maze-le 11y ago
> threatening to leave is the blackmail part. That is bs, leaving is the only leverage you have as an employee. If you do't use it, you might have a problem, because you lack the ability to negotiate. The age of feudalism is over you know... To be fair, this could have been wrapped up in some better language, like "I don't think my salary is reflecting my talents", but in the end it all boils down to leaving for a better opportunity
azernik 11y ago
"Give me more money or I leave" is negotiation (specifically, an ultimatum), and is a perfectly legitimate tactic. Standing up and leaving is throwing a tantrum (or a last resort if the ultimatum fails) - doing so without first telling the other party your problem and giving them a chance to fix it is completely unprofessional. WRT your definition of blackmail, I'm getting "the action, treated as a criminal offense, of demanding money from a person in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person." It's a VERY specific term having to do with hidden information. What you cited seems closer to the definition of extortion ("the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats"), but frankly, as long as what you're threatening to do is legal, that's business. Your relationship with your employer is first and foremost a business relationship - they are not your best friend, your family, or your surrogate father. You have no obligation to play nice with their feelings. I understand your impulse to not give in to an employee that demands like this, but you need to drop the moralizing BS - what you're saying is "they know what they're worth and I can't afford to pay that, so I'll only hire employees who don't know what they're worth". Sound accurate?

icebraining 11y ago

First, blackmail is about information, so if anything it would be extortion. And it's not extortion because the "threat" was not wrongful; the boss is not his owner nor is he entitled to his work. The word you're looking for is haggling, and it's a common part of negotiations.

DanBC 11y ago
But "give me more money or I'll leave" is a bad way to go about haggling, and is likely to lead to the employee leaving. "I'm worth more than you're paying" is better, even though the employer and employee both know that "and if yu don't pay me more I'll leave" is an unspoken part of that sentence. HN regularly mentions the book "how to win friends and influence people" or talks about hacking various interpersonal processes. This is just an interpersonal hack. Saying "give me more money or I'll leave" causes many - but admittedly not all - managers to respond with "go ahead and leave then", even when the manager knows that replacing the leavig employee will require a higher wage than the employee is currently getting and some expenditure on the recruitment process. People are not rational and they do mot make rational decisions. We know that management, and recruitment, is very broken.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Oh, for sure, it's not a good negotiation tactic, no argument there.

gliese1337 11y ago

"Give me more money or I leave" is not blackmail. That is called an "ultimatum". Blackmail is defined as a demand for money in exchange for not revealing compromising or injurious information. "Give me more money or I will publish these naked photos of you" is blackmail. One of those is illegal. The other one isn't.

hwstar 11y ago
Think of it like that Jaba the Hutt/thermal detonator scene in Star Wars episode 6: "This bounty hunter is my kind of scum, Fearless and Inventive" When dealing with sociopaths,, to negotiate from a position of strength; you need to have an offer in hand from another employer, because it is very likely that you could be fired on the spot when you confront this type of individual. The sociopath doesn't care, and will just find someone else to exploit.

eyko 11y ago

No, it's not blackmail. It's a salary negotiation.

chrisbennet 11y ago

It's called negotiation. I can see how it might seem threatening to someone who feels threatened by the thought of an employee standing up for himself.

sgk284 11y ago

Have you never negotiated anything? This isn't blackmail. He's leveraging an asset (his talents) for compensation. If Netflix is negotiating licensing rights to a movie and the owner of the rights says "We want more money or we won't license this to you." that's not blackmail. It's negotiating a deal. In this case the guy is saying "I want more money or I won't work for you any more." It is absolutely the correct call. He was being taken advantage of. He used his only point of leverage to get a fairer deal.

etchalon 11y ago

You have absolutely no idea what the word blackmail means. What he did was give his boss an entirely reasonable ultimatum.

skissane 11y ago

Blackmail is a crime in many jurisdictions whose legal systems derive from England. The precise definition varies, but a classic example would be if I knew you had committed a crime, and threatened to report it to the authorities unless you paid me. See for example 18 US Code 873 - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/873 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/873 No one would ever be found guilty of blackmail for simply saying "Give me a pay rise or else I'll resign". (But, "Give me a pay rise or else I'll report your illegal activities to the authorities" would be blackmail.) The essence of blackmail is demanding money for an illegitimate reason - money which you are not legitimately due - and there is nothing inherently illegitimate about demanding a pay rise. It simply means that you put a different value on your own labour than your employer currently does, and if you and they cannot reach agreement on that value, you'll look for someone else with whom you agree more.

maze-le 11y ago

> threatening to leave is the blackmail part. That is bs, leaving is the only leverage you have as an employee. If you do't use it, you might have a problem, because you lack the ability to negotiate. The age of feudalism is over you know... To be fair, this could have been wrapped up in some better language, like "I don't think my salary is reflecting my talents", but in the end it all boils down to leaving for a better opportunity

azernik 11y ago

"Give me more money or I leave" is negotiation (specifically, an ultimatum), and is a perfectly legitimate tactic. Standing up and leaving is throwing a tantrum (or a last resort if the ultimatum fails) - doing so without first telling the other party your problem and giving them a chance to fix it is completely unprofessional. WRT your definition of blackmail, I'm getting "the action, treated as a criminal offense, of demanding money from a person in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person." It's a VERY specific term having to do with hidden information. What you cited seems closer to the definition of extortion ("the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats"), but frankly, as long as what you're threatening to do is legal, that's business. Your relationship with your employer is first and foremost a business relationship - they are not your best friend, your family, or your surrogate father. You have no obligation to play nice with their feelings. I understand your impulse to not give in to an employee that demands like this, but you need to drop the moralizing BS - what you're saying is "they know what they're worth and I can't afford to pay that, so I'll only hire employees who don't know what they're worth". Sound accurate?