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@nilkin "You give me more money or I leave." vs. Just walking away from the negotiation. From my experience if you give in to "You give me more money or I leave

@nilkin "You give me more money or I leave." vs. Just walking away from the negotiation. From my experience if you give in to "You give me more money or I leave" 6 months down the road it will be another "You give me more money or I leave" and then another. Wikipedia: "Blackmail is an act [..] involving unjustified threats to make [..] cause loss to another unless a demand is met."

gayprogrammer 11y ago
Paying an employee for work and services is not "a loss". It's an exchange.
- lagadu 11y ago
  I'll go further and say it's an investment.
nilkn 11y ago
It sounds like you've had a bad experience with a former employee, but this is not blackmail. That's just standing up for himself. The OP was working there contingent on his boss's promise of a raise, and both parties knew this, including the boss. In fact, the OP was remarkably generous towards his boss by doing something very foolish: knowingly taking an unlivable wage out of trust that the boss would live up to his word. Regarding your Wikipedia quote, leaving a job in which you are abused and underpaid is not at all unjustified.
- Bonogongo 11y ago
  It sounds like you have done this in the past, and it is blackmail. And I understand that you don't want to see yourself as a blackmailer. "I'm more worth than that" and leaving is standing up. "Give me more money or I leave" is blackmail. "Regarding your Wikipedia quote, leaving a job in which you are abused and underpaid is not at all unjustified." Leaving is not the blackmail part, threatening to leave is the blackmail part.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    First, blackmail is about information, so if anything it would be extortion. And it's not extortion because the "threat" was not wrongful; the boss is not his owner nor is he entitled to his work. The word you're looking for is haggling, and it's a common part of negotiations.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      But "give me more money or I'll leave" is a bad way to go about haggling, and is likely to lead to the employee leaving. "I'm worth more than you're paying" is better, even though the employer and employee both know that "and if yu don't pay me more I'll leave" is an unspoken part of that sentence. HN regularly mentions the book "how to win friends and influence people" or talks about hacking various interpersonal processes. This is just an interpersonal hack. Saying "give me more money or I'll leave" causes many - but admittedly not all - managers to respond with "go ahead and leave then", even when the manager knows that replacing the leavig employee will require a higher wage than the employee is currently getting and some expenditure on the recruitment process. People are not rational and they do mot make rational decisions. We know that management, and recruitment, is very broken.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Oh, for sure, it's not a good negotiation tactic, no argument there.
  - gliese1337 11y ago
    "Give me more money or I leave" is not blackmail. That is called an "ultimatum". Blackmail is defined as a demand for money in exchange for not revealing compromising or injurious information. "Give me more money or I will publish these naked photos of you" is blackmail. One of those is illegal. The other one isn't.
    - hwstar 11y ago
      Think of it like that Jaba the Hutt/thermal detonator scene in Star Wars episode 6: "This bounty hunter is my kind of scum, Fearless and Inventive" When dealing with sociopaths,, to negotiate from a position of strength; you need to have an offer in hand from another employer, because it is very likely that you could be fired on the spot when you confront this type of individual. The sociopath doesn't care, and will just find someone else to exploit.
argc 11y ago
If I was offered that much I would say the same thing. Although, I might try to have something else lined up first.
glyxbaer 11y ago
How is that blackmailing? It's negotiating salary. If you can't pay me a livable wage- or a wage that I am worth- I'll look for a job somewhere else.
chrisbennet 11y ago
After being strung along (he was lied to) for months he made a totally justified ultimatum to be paid what he's worth or he'd go somewhere that would. A manager who knows someone is worth it but would still rather let me go than pay market price for their labor (because he doesn't like negotiating when he's not in a position of absolute power) is probably doing so because he can't man up and negotiate with someone his own size figuratively speaking. The stereotypical "I'm not letting a woman tell me what to do." sort of insecurity/attitude. Employees have been "on the bottom" in the traditional work relationship for so long, it can seem "unfair" to employers to have to deal with employees on a more level playing field.
MisterBastahrd 11y ago
Um... that's exactly how salary negotiations work. If I don't do a good enough job, you demote or fire me. If I do a good enough job AND the market says I should make X, then X - Y isn't fucking good enough, and you should be warned that I'm happy to find an employer that WILL pay me what I ask for.

gayprogrammer 11y ago

Paying an employee for work and services is not "a loss". It's an exchange.

lagadu 11y ago
I'll go further and say it's an investment.

nilkn 11y ago

It sounds like you've had a bad experience with a former employee, but this is not blackmail. That's just standing up for himself. The OP was working there contingent on his boss's promise of a raise, and both parties knew this, including the boss. In fact, the OP was remarkably generous towards his boss by doing something very foolish: knowingly taking an unlivable wage out of trust that the boss would live up to his word. Regarding your Wikipedia quote, leaving a job in which you are abused and underpaid is not at all unjustified.

Bonogongo 11y ago
It sounds like you have done this in the past, and it is blackmail. And I understand that you don't want to see yourself as a blackmailer. "I'm more worth than that" and leaving is standing up. "Give me more money or I leave" is blackmail. "Regarding your Wikipedia quote, leaving a job in which you are abused and underpaid is not at all unjustified." Leaving is not the blackmail part, threatening to leave is the blackmail part.
- icebraining 11y ago
  First, blackmail is about information, so if anything it would be extortion. And it's not extortion because the "threat" was not wrongful; the boss is not his owner nor is he entitled to his work. The word you're looking for is haggling, and it's a common part of negotiations.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    But "give me more money or I'll leave" is a bad way to go about haggling, and is likely to lead to the employee leaving. "I'm worth more than you're paying" is better, even though the employer and employee both know that "and if yu don't pay me more I'll leave" is an unspoken part of that sentence. HN regularly mentions the book "how to win friends and influence people" or talks about hacking various interpersonal processes. This is just an interpersonal hack. Saying "give me more money or I'll leave" causes many - but admittedly not all - managers to respond with "go ahead and leave then", even when the manager knows that replacing the leavig employee will require a higher wage than the employee is currently getting and some expenditure on the recruitment process. People are not rational and they do mot make rational decisions. We know that management, and recruitment, is very broken.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      Oh, for sure, it's not a good negotiation tactic, no argument there.
- gliese1337 11y ago
  "Give me more money or I leave" is not blackmail. That is called an "ultimatum". Blackmail is defined as a demand for money in exchange for not revealing compromising or injurious information. "Give me more money or I will publish these naked photos of you" is blackmail. One of those is illegal. The other one isn't.
  - hwstar 11y ago
    Think of it like that Jaba the Hutt/thermal detonator scene in Star Wars episode 6: "This bounty hunter is my kind of scum, Fearless and Inventive" When dealing with sociopaths,, to negotiate from a position of strength; you need to have an offer in hand from another employer, because it is very likely that you could be fired on the spot when you confront this type of individual. The sociopath doesn't care, and will just find someone else to exploit.

argc 11y ago

If I was offered that much I would say the same thing. Although, I might try to have something else lined up first.

glyxbaer 11y ago

How is that blackmailing? It's negotiating salary. If you can't pay me a livable wage- or a wage that I am worth- I'll look for a job somewhere else.

chrisbennet 11y ago

After being strung along (he was lied to) for months he made a totally justified ultimatum to be paid what he's worth or he'd go somewhere that would. A manager who knows someone is worth it but would still rather let me go than pay market price for their labor (because he doesn't like negotiating when he's not in a position of absolute power) is probably doing so because he can't man up and negotiate with someone his own size figuratively speaking. The stereotypical "I'm not letting a woman tell me what to do." sort of insecurity/attitude. Employees have been "on the bottom" in the traditional work relationship for so long, it can seem "unfair" to employers to have to deal with employees on a more level playing field.

MisterBastahrd 11y ago

Um... that's exactly how salary negotiations work. If I don't do a good enough job, you demote or fire me. If I do a good enough job AND the market says I should make X, then X - Y isn't fucking good enough, and you should be warned that I'm happy to find an employer that WILL pay me what I ask for.