3 ms·

> I'm slightly queasy about calling "torrenting whole seasons worth of shows I paid for" "time-shifting"; That's because it's illegal. You haven't actually pai

by chancho 17y ago

> I'm slightly queasy about calling "torrenting whole seasons worth of shows I paid for" "time-shifting"; That's because it's illegal. You haven't actually paid for the shows. You've paid for access to the stream of content, but that doesn't automatically grant you access to acquire that same content from a third party. It'd be the same as if you saw it in the theater and then said to yourself "hey I've already paid for this once so I'm just going to torrent the dvd rip." I'm not judging. I do this too, even for shows I don't "pay for", but let's face facts: we're minor criminals. I'm not entirely comfortable with it either so I'm weaning myself off of it. Eventually, everything becomes available on netflix, so really it just takes patience. (Sometimes my patience is worn thin by netflix's fucked up queue-jumping practices, then I torrent. I'm weak.)

CamperBob 17y ago
That's because it's illegal. You haven't actually paid for the shows.You've paid for access to the stream of content, but that doesn't automatically grant you access to acquire that same content from a third party. I actually don't think that's settled law. IsoHunt's "business model" or lack thereof isn't my problem. In the case of LOST in particular, I torrent each show as it comes out, then buy the DVDs at the end of the season, which stay shrink-wrapped and unwatched in the closet. To be (more) ethical, I suppose I should probably bury the box sets in the back yard to make sure nobody else can derive entertainment value from watching them. The reality, of course, is that copyright as an enforceable legal concept is over, for better or worse.
nostrademons 17y ago
Do you have any legal basis for that? Sony vs. Universal Studios (1983) hinged on timeshifting being legitimate fair use: "because the District Court's factual findings reveal that even the unauthorized home time-shifting of respondents' programs is legitimate fair use". If it's legal to timeshift broadcast TV, why would it be illegal for subscription TV? Similarly, if timeshifting subscription TV is not fair use, then Tivo and all the other DVR makers would exist solely for infringing purposes, and I doubt we'd see them on the market. IANAL, but I'm guessing that UANAL either, so I'd like to see some evidence that it actually is illegal before being stated as such...
- evgen 17y ago
  "Time shifting" is legitimate fair use if you record the shows yourself for your own personal use. If you claim that because the episode you are downloading was at one point in the past shown on broadcast TV you are "time shifting" it then you would not get very far on court.
  - jrockway 17y ago
    Before we get to court, why don't you decide what crime this is?
- chancho 17y ago
  No, neither of us are lawyers (let's keep this http://mattmaroon.com/2009/05/01/hacker-news-disease/ http://mattmaroon.com/2009/05/01/hacker-news-disease/ in mind) but since you've cited case law at me, then who am I to ruin an IP law speculation-fest. Perhaps "it's illegal" is too bold a statement, but I do think that if tptacek got sued by HBO for torrenting True Blood then a fair use defense would not hold up. That's just my not-a-lawyer opinion, and I don't know of any precedent for this fair-use-timeshifting-by-proxy defense (do you?) but hey we might actually see a case like this soon. Last season HBO was monitoring the True Blood torrents and sending out C&D's to the ISPs of all peers with US IP addresses, if the Pirate Bay comments were to be believed. Anyway, here's my not-a-lawyer reasoning: copyright law grants all rights of copying and distribution to the originator of the work and these are only transferred to a second party by written contract, EXCEPT for fair use (and first sale and other exceptions like that.) According to Wikipedia, fair use is a nebulous thing and varies from case to case but from what I can see it only gives you the right to copy for personal use (Tivo good) and never distribution (torrents bad). In fact Joel Tenenbaum and Jaimie Thomas both tried and failed to use fair-use as a defense for filesharing. So in order for hypothetical HBO v. Tptacek to not be summarily ruled in favor of the plaintiff, tptacek would have to show that his subscription to HBO constituted a contract which granted him the right to acquire and distribute HBO recordings. AND his torrent peers would all have to be HBO subscribers too. I doubt you'll find any language like that on his cable bill. But what do I know.
  - 17y ago
ars 17y ago
Is it legal to record a show? Yes. Is it legal to ask someone to record a show for you? I think yes. So, how is using a torrent to get a show you have legal access to illegal? And don't say commercials, since it's perfectly legal to ask/pay someone to record a show for you, while pausing the recording during the commercials. There is a reason TV studios have never gone after torrent sites, while movies studios have.
- tptacek 17y ago
  I'm pretty sure it's not lawful for someone to use their own equipment and their own pay cable feed to record a show and distribute it to someone else. I'm just saying, I don't think "of course it's legal" is the answer to your hypotheticals. A more plausible reason TV studios don't go after torrent sites, apart from the fact that the TV business is more decentralized, is the fact that torrenting does less damage to them. TV is primarily ad supported. Motion pictures make a large chunk of their money directly off the new release window of the DVD release.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > Is it legal to ask someone to record a show for you? I think yes. That's possibly illegal; but it's one of those things that has never actually been tested and I cant find any part of the law that actually fully covers such a scenario. The legal problem with torrents you already pay for access too is probably more founded in that your probably (unless your leeching the torrent ofc) facilitating others to download it - who might not have the access.

by chancho 17y ago

CamperBob 17y ago

That's because it's illegal. You haven't actually paid for the shows.You've paid for access to the stream of content, but that doesn't automatically grant you access to acquire that same content from a third party. I actually don't think that's settled law. IsoHunt's "business model" or lack thereof isn't my problem. In the case of LOST in particular, I torrent each show as it comes out, then buy the DVDs at the end of the season, which stay shrink-wrapped and unwatched in the closet. To be (more) ethical, I suppose I should probably bury the box sets in the back yard to make sure nobody else can derive entertainment value from watching them. The reality, of course, is that copyright as an enforceable legal concept is over, for better or worse.

nostrademons 17y ago

Do you have any legal basis for that? Sony vs. Universal Studios (1983) hinged on timeshifting being legitimate fair use: "because the District Court's factual findings reveal that even the unauthorized home time-shifting of respondents' programs is legitimate fair use". If it's legal to timeshift broadcast TV, why would it be illegal for subscription TV? Similarly, if timeshifting subscription TV is not fair use, then Tivo and all the other DVR makers would exist solely for infringing purposes, and I doubt we'd see them on the market. IANAL, but I'm guessing that UANAL either, so I'd like to see some evidence that it actually is illegal before being stated as such...

evgen 17y ago
"Time shifting" is legitimate fair use if you record the shows yourself for your own personal use. If you claim that because the episode you are downloading was at one point in the past shown on broadcast TV you are "time shifting" it then you would not get very far on court.
- jrockway 17y ago
  Before we get to court, why don't you decide what crime this is?
chancho 17y ago
No, neither of us are lawyers (let's keep this http://mattmaroon.com/2009/05/01/hacker-news-disease/ http://mattmaroon.com/2009/05/01/hacker-news-disease/ in mind) but since you've cited case law at me, then who am I to ruin an IP law speculation-fest. Perhaps "it's illegal" is too bold a statement, but I do think that if tptacek got sued by HBO for torrenting True Blood then a fair use defense would not hold up. That's just my not-a-lawyer opinion, and I don't know of any precedent for this fair-use-timeshifting-by-proxy defense (do you?) but hey we might actually see a case like this soon. Last season HBO was monitoring the True Blood torrents and sending out C&D's to the ISPs of all peers with US IP addresses, if the Pirate Bay comments were to be believed. Anyway, here's my not-a-lawyer reasoning: copyright law grants all rights of copying and distribution to the originator of the work and these are only transferred to a second party by written contract, EXCEPT for fair use (and first sale and other exceptions like that.) According to Wikipedia, fair use is a nebulous thing and varies from case to case but from what I can see it only gives you the right to copy for personal use (Tivo good) and never distribution (torrents bad). In fact Joel Tenenbaum and Jaimie Thomas both tried and failed to use fair-use as a defense for filesharing. So in order for hypothetical HBO v. Tptacek to not be summarily ruled in favor of the plaintiff, tptacek would have to show that his subscription to HBO constituted a contract which granted him the right to acquire and distribute HBO recordings. AND his torrent peers would all have to be HBO subscribers too. I doubt you'll find any language like that on his cable bill. But what do I know.
- 17y ago

ars 17y ago

Is it legal to record a show? Yes. Is it legal to ask someone to record a show for you? I think yes. So, how is using a torrent to get a show you have legal access to illegal? And don't say commercials, since it's perfectly legal to ask/pay someone to record a show for you, while pausing the recording during the commercials. There is a reason TV studios have never gone after torrent sites, while movies studios have.

tptacek 17y ago
I'm pretty sure it's not lawful for someone to use their own equipment and their own pay cable feed to record a show and distribute it to someone else. I'm just saying, I don't think "of course it's legal" is the answer to your hypotheticals. A more plausible reason TV studios don't go after torrent sites, apart from the fact that the TV business is more decentralized, is the fact that torrenting does less damage to them. TV is primarily ad supported. Motion pictures make a large chunk of their money directly off the new release window of the DVD release.
ErrantX 17y ago
> Is it legal to ask someone to record a show for you? I think yes. That's possibly illegal; but it's one of those things that has never actually been tested and I cant find any part of the law that actually fully covers such a scenario. The legal problem with torrents you already pay for access too is probably more founded in that your probably (unless your leeching the torrent ofc) facilitating others to download it - who might not have the access.