8 ms·

The really galling part is the total refusal to admit they're not doing anything innovative. "There has never been another product like the iPad Pro before" was

The really galling part is the total refusal to admit they're not doing anything innovative. "There has never been another product like the iPad Pro before" was a real quote from today's presentation, and is a complete falsehood.

IBM 11y ago
I literally laughed out loud at this comment. HN is always predictable.
- ossreality 11y ago
  Why? Do you enjoy being an ass?
mbreese 11y ago
There has never been a product like it before. No one else has ever made an iOS tablet like it. :) It's an admittedly nuanced statement, but not an outright falsehood. I don't think anyone in that room took it for anything else - they've all seen the Samsung and Microsoft tablets that inspired the Pro. Just like they were inspired by the original iPad, which was inspired by... which was inspired by... etc...
- tyrust 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie#Lying_by_omission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie#Lying_by_omission >I don't think anyone in that room took it for anything else - they've all seen the Samsung and Microsoft tablets that inspired the Pro. Perhaps that's true for a room of tech experts and media. As for the thousands of common consumers watching at home, they may not draw the same conclusions.
  - gress 11y ago
    You do realize that the iPad was the first mass market multi-touch tablet, and that the Samsung and Microsoft tablets were introduced as a response to its success?
- chmike 11y ago
  This is an inductive statement very close to the doubly linked assertion presented by [Dr Milton Erickson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Erickson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Erickson) from witch the academic example is "Save money, buy now". Here the induced assertion is "There has never been a product like it before" which is obviously false. This is beyond marketing. It is manipulative talk. In my opinion, this should be made illegal. We have seen in Germany during the years 1935 to 1945, and more recently with ISIS, what manipulative talk could lead people to do.
  - jedmeyers 11y ago
    Who will separate 'manipulative talk' from 'marketing' or other types of speech?
    - infinite8s 11y ago
      The Department of Truth.
    - chmike 11y ago
      False advertising is a misdemeanor crime. You can be fined up to $5,000 for it and spend six months in jail, or more if it’s your second offense.
IkmoIkmo 11y ago
It's not a complete falsehood but it's a totally empty statement. Virtually any device you put out that's not exactly, spec-by-spec the same, you can say 'never been a product like this before'. It's true and empty. They do a lot of those, they're true, hyperbolic, and totally devoid of any significance. For example they'll say 'the iPhone 6 was the most popular iPhone ... EVER'. As if it's significant. But that's completely unexpected and it's not news, either. I'll happily take a 10 trillion dollar bet that the iPhone 7 will sell even better. And that the new Galaxy S 6 sells better than the 5, and the 7 will sell better than the 6, too. Or they'll say the iPhone 6S is the most advanced iPhone ... EVER. As if, again, that's news. As if we think they built a 6S that's worse than the 6. It's a truthful, hyperbolic, totally insignificant statement. It's different from a falsehood. Calling a 3 second video, a photo, in the sense that it's a bunch of photo frames, that's more of a direct falsehood to me. We use the word photo to denote a still image, and video for multiple frames of photos. But that's a marketing gimmick that's more ridiculous than it is disingenuous. As for innovation, I mostly agree. The ability to execute extremely well and polish your work isn't innovation. It can be driven by innovations of course but it's not the kind of innovation we talk about when we refer to Apple's history. Since the iPhone 4 I've mostly felt a ton of polish but no real breakthroughs on the phone department for example, tablet wise... mostly just solid iterations like everyone else, nothing fundamentally innovative about the iPad 4 or Air or mini, really. Pro feels like more of the same, split screen we've seen before, styluses we've seen before. Again, executed well and polished. I mean of course there's innovation, but it's not what sets them apart. Look at Force Touch for example, now 3D touch. People probably missed the fact Huawei demo'd force touch last week on their android phone. And that's a feature we'd think of as their innovation. Others, like a large tablet, split screen, type covers, wireless charging, a stylus, 3-second videos (called live photos) etc are all seen before.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >For example they'll say 'the iPhone 6 was the most popular iPhone ... EVER'. As if it's significant. But that's completely unexpected and it's not news, either. I'll happily take a 10 trillion dollar bet that the iPhone 7 will sell even better. And that the new Galaxy S 6 sells better than the 5, and the 7 will sell better than the 6, too. You understand that sales growth can't last forever right?
coldtea 11y ago
It's marketing. And when it comes to marketing its far more true than that Lynx will get you laid (lol), or that some new detergent will revolutionaze how clean your clothes are, or that some GAP clothes will make you part of the "in" crowd. It's also depends on the level we're talking. If we just take "product like the iPad pro" to mean "a large tablet" then yes it's a "complete falsehood". But it obviously means "a large tablet with this attention to detail, with the supporting OS and app ecosystem finely tuned to work along with it". Which is true -- as all Surface tablets I've seen are if not subpar, different in several ways.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  > It's marketing. And when it comes to marketing its far more true than that Lynx will get you laid (lol), or that some new detergent will revolutionaze how clean your clothes are, or that some GAP clothes will make you part of the "in" crowd. Yes. It's marketing - the magic context in which we suspend our disbelief and let people lie to our faces, and we then applaud and pay them.
  - stouset 11y ago
    You confuse advertising and marketing. Marketing is the process of figuring out who a product is for and how to get them to want to buy it (through channels like engineering, design, and yes, advertising). Apple being an excellent marketing company isn't a slur — it's an incredible complement. They absolutely excel at understanding who their target audience is, building devices that appeal to that audience, and advertising to ensure that audience is aware of how those devices address needs they may not have even known they had.
    - Spivak 11y ago
      Eight, let's not try to twist words here. Apple is great at marketing but I don't think that was person's intended meaning. He means that Apple is good at manipulating people. They make okay products (in absolute terms, not implying that anything is better) and would not have their completely rabid following did they not manipulate people into buying into their status, lifestyle, and that they're more valuable than their worth.
yangkaisun 11y ago
Yeah, isn't Microsoft Surface Pro marketed precisely to be an enterprise-ready tablet?
Fiahil 11y ago
I prefer to think of this as mermaid marketing. It's nice to hear them sing, but don't fall for it or they will eat you. Watching theses events is like this famous passage of the Odyssey. Once you are tightly attached, and don't risk to go overboard (and start buying stuff you don't really need), then enjoy the show. I've been told their exciting song is the most detailed and beautiful thing you've ever heard :)
- kbenson 11y ago
  The considerate seafarer might consider warning others, rather than sitting back with popcorn. All these arguments really center around two points, will the mermaids eat you, and even if they will eat you, should we care that the singing tricks people or just accept it?
jedrek 11y ago
What is this obsession with thinking that Apple (or any business) should present new products by going... "well, shucks, this is kinda crap, but we had a production plan to meet. Sorry, it's not very good..." Of course they're selling the hell out of it, that's what companies that take in billions of dollars do: make a decent product and then promote it. At least the stuff Apple makes usually works and the features they add into their products are actually useful - yeah, I'm looking at you, Samsung, and your list of Samsung XXX functions that were obviously designed and implemented over a weekend.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

IBM 11y ago

I literally laughed out loud at this comment. HN is always predictable.

ossreality 11y ago
Why? Do you enjoy being an ass?

mbreese 11y ago

There has never been a product like it before. No one else has ever made an iOS tablet like it. :) It's an admittedly nuanced statement, but not an outright falsehood. I don't think anyone in that room took it for anything else - they've all seen the Samsung and Microsoft tablets that inspired the Pro. Just like they were inspired by the original iPad, which was inspired by... which was inspired by... etc...

tyrust 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie#Lying_by_omission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie#Lying_by_omission >I don't think anyone in that room took it for anything else - they've all seen the Samsung and Microsoft tablets that inspired the Pro. Perhaps that's true for a room of tech experts and media. As for the thousands of common consumers watching at home, they may not draw the same conclusions.
- gress 11y ago
  You do realize that the iPad was the first mass market multi-touch tablet, and that the Samsung and Microsoft tablets were introduced as a response to its success?
chmike 11y ago
This is an inductive statement very close to the doubly linked assertion presented by [Dr Milton Erickson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Erickson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Erickson) from witch the academic example is "Save money, buy now". Here the induced assertion is "There has never been a product like it before" which is obviously false. This is beyond marketing. It is manipulative talk. In my opinion, this should be made illegal. We have seen in Germany during the years 1935 to 1945, and more recently with ISIS, what manipulative talk could lead people to do.
- jedmeyers 11y ago
  Who will separate 'manipulative talk' from 'marketing' or other types of speech?
  - infinite8s 11y ago
    The Department of Truth.
  - chmike 11y ago
    False advertising is a misdemeanor crime. You can be fined up to $5,000 for it and spend six months in jail, or more if it’s your second offense.

IkmoIkmo 11y ago

It's not a complete falsehood but it's a totally empty statement. Virtually any device you put out that's not exactly, spec-by-spec the same, you can say 'never been a product like this before'. It's true and empty. They do a lot of those, they're true, hyperbolic, and totally devoid of any significance. For example they'll say 'the iPhone 6 was the most popular iPhone ... EVER'. As if it's significant. But that's completely unexpected and it's not news, either. I'll happily take a 10 trillion dollar bet that the iPhone 7 will sell even better. And that the new Galaxy S 6 sells better than the 5, and the 7 will sell better than the 6, too. Or they'll say the iPhone 6S is the most advanced iPhone ... EVER. As if, again, that's news. As if we think they built a 6S that's worse than the 6. It's a truthful, hyperbolic, totally insignificant statement. It's different from a falsehood. Calling a 3 second video, a photo, in the sense that it's a bunch of photo frames, that's more of a direct falsehood to me. We use the word photo to denote a still image, and video for multiple frames of photos. But that's a marketing gimmick that's more ridiculous than it is disingenuous. As for innovation, I mostly agree. The ability to execute extremely well and polish your work isn't innovation. It can be driven by innovations of course but it's not the kind of innovation we talk about when we refer to Apple's history. Since the iPhone 4 I've mostly felt a ton of polish but no real breakthroughs on the phone department for example, tablet wise... mostly just solid iterations like everyone else, nothing fundamentally innovative about the iPad 4 or Air or mini, really. Pro feels like more of the same, split screen we've seen before, styluses we've seen before. Again, executed well and polished. I mean of course there's innovation, but it's not what sets them apart. Look at Force Touch for example, now 3D touch. People probably missed the fact Huawei demo'd force touch last week on their android phone. And that's a feature we'd think of as their innovation. Others, like a large tablet, split screen, type covers, wireless charging, a stylus, 3-second videos (called live photos) etc are all seen before.

coldtea 11y ago
>For example they'll say 'the iPhone 6 was the most popular iPhone ... EVER'. As if it's significant. But that's completely unexpected and it's not news, either. I'll happily take a 10 trillion dollar bet that the iPhone 7 will sell even better. And that the new Galaxy S 6 sells better than the 5, and the 7 will sell better than the 6, too. You understand that sales growth can't last forever right?

coldtea 11y ago

It's marketing. And when it comes to marketing its far more true than that Lynx will get you laid (lol), or that some new detergent will revolutionaze how clean your clothes are, or that some GAP clothes will make you part of the "in" crowd. It's also depends on the level we're talking. If we just take "product like the iPad pro" to mean "a large tablet" then yes it's a "complete falsehood". But it obviously means "a large tablet with this attention to detail, with the supporting OS and app ecosystem finely tuned to work along with it". Which is true -- as all Surface tablets I've seen are if not subpar, different in several ways.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
> It's marketing. And when it comes to marketing its far more true than that Lynx will get you laid (lol), or that some new detergent will revolutionaze how clean your clothes are, or that some GAP clothes will make you part of the "in" crowd. Yes. It's marketing - the magic context in which we suspend our disbelief and let people lie to our faces, and we then applaud and pay them.
- stouset 11y ago
  You confuse advertising and marketing. Marketing is the process of figuring out who a product is for and how to get them to want to buy it (through channels like engineering, design, and yes, advertising). Apple being an excellent marketing company isn't a slur — it's an incredible complement. They absolutely excel at understanding who their target audience is, building devices that appeal to that audience, and advertising to ensure that audience is aware of how those devices address needs they may not have even known they had.
  - Spivak 11y ago
    Eight, let's not try to twist words here. Apple is great at marketing but I don't think that was person's intended meaning. He means that Apple is good at manipulating people. They make okay products (in absolute terms, not implying that anything is better) and would not have their completely rabid following did they not manipulate people into buying into their status, lifestyle, and that they're more valuable than their worth.

yangkaisun 11y ago

Yeah, isn't Microsoft Surface Pro marketed precisely to be an enterprise-ready tablet?

Fiahil 11y ago

I prefer to think of this as mermaid marketing. It's nice to hear them sing, but don't fall for it or they will eat you. Watching theses events is like this famous passage of the Odyssey. Once you are tightly attached, and don't risk to go overboard (and start buying stuff you don't really need), then enjoy the show. I've been told their exciting song is the most detailed and beautiful thing you've ever heard :)

kbenson 11y ago
The considerate seafarer might consider warning others, rather than sitting back with popcorn. All these arguments really center around two points, will the mermaids eat you, and even if they will eat you, should we care that the singing tricks people or just accept it?

jedrek 11y ago

What is this obsession with thinking that Apple (or any business) should present new products by going... "well, shucks, this is kinda crap, but we had a production plan to meet. Sorry, it's not very good..." Of course they're selling the hell out of it, that's what companies that take in billions of dollars do: make a decent product and then promote it. At least the stuff Apple makes usually works and the features they add into their products are actually useful - yeah, I'm looking at you, Samsung, and your list of Samsung XXX functions that were obviously designed and implemented over a weekend.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]