6 ms·

I think the one important thing that Microsoft's approach has over Apple's is file management. File management is horrible on iOS.

therein 11y ago
Do you know what happens if you let people see their files? They try to edit them. Do you want people to be able to edit their files? Yeah... I thought so.
- chillacy 11y ago
  I know you're being sarcastic, but yes, some people do edit their files. They see that folder that says System32 and start re-organizing the files within, and then feel like computers are scary and difficult when things break.
mythz 11y ago
File Systems is also a complexity that confuses a lot of non-technical people, which is why Apple tries to hide that one even exists on iOS - Where can I find the latest document I was working on? Just open the app you created it with, as a bonus you'll get transparent syncing across all your devices. Syncing and Backup are tedial tasks most people wouldn't do if they needed to do it manually or configure an external program / service to do it.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  It's one thing to have a persistent object store instead of a file system (as the Newton did). It's wholly another to have a file system at the core of your OS but just pretend it doesn't exist. That's a regressive obfuscation, not encapsulation. (Yes, I understand who the target audience is.)
  - mythz 11y ago
    Apple's primary focus is on UX simplicity and Customers couldn't care less how it's implemented behind the scenes, they just want to get stuff done, find the Word document they were working on or see the Photo or Video they just took. The less Customers have to know about how technology works the happier they are, and the more successful Apple is.
    - wwweston 11y ago
      The key part of that last statement is have to. You're right that as a matter of routine, having recent documents worked with in an app come up on opening it (and an easy visual list of all the files the app has touched) is a great interaction pattern. That says nothing about whether or not there should be some kind of file browser, or other means for users to become aware and able to interact with files outside an app. Particularly because at some point, single-app workflows hit their limits, and getting stuff done either becomes a matter of using multiple apps or waiting for an app to grow the new feature you need (the latter of which is not just getting stuff done). And I'm not just talking about Power Users -- I've seen this happen with my mom (proverbial disinterested computer user), who generally is quite happy to be completely unaware of the file system, but still periodically runs into corner cases where she needs to do something no single app will let her do (usually audio-file related). This all reminds me of the discussion around hiding URLs in browsers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7677898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7677898 For decades, we had a system where people who didn't care to pay any attention to URL bars could ignore them, and people who were incidentally curious could learn useful things by paying attention, people who needed to discover them could, and people found them regularly useful had them at the ready. Then somebody who got caught up in a shallow idea of simplicity that neglects utility and discoverability decided they'd make a UX change that was hostile to all of latter two groups. After all... the first group doesn't care, they just want to navigate the web and get stuff done. The right principle here is to make the simple case easy and obvious, and the more complex case discoverably possible.
      - mythz 11y ago
        No the key part is what target audience and use-cases are they optimizing for with each device. Do they want to create an experience that's so simple to use that they're enjoyed by both kids and non-technical grand parents, that's optimized for the most common everyday tasks, e.g browsing the web, shopping, reading news, books, taking photos, finding driving directions, writing emails, etc. Or do they want to offer a full Desktop OS that's suitable for everyone including devs and power users lets them run server software, multiple windows, anti virus software, network filesystems, development IDE's that enables them to build iOS Apps, etc. For those users they offer OSX on macbooks and iMac's and choose not to complicate their UX on their most popular computing platform - that's quickly becoming most of their Customers primary computing platform. It's Apple's felicitous focus on simplicity and Customer use-cases that's what's made them the most successful company in the world.
- prapam2 11y ago
  The whole OS file system yes. But for most non technical people the desktop would be the file system. They usually created folders after folders. Those are very easy to learn and understand.
- 72deluxe 11y ago
  Don't you end up with multiple copies of a source file if you open in app A, share with B, share with C from app A, modify in B? Does app A's copy get updated with app B's modifications?

therein 11y ago

Do you know what happens if you let people see their files? They try to edit them. Do you want people to be able to edit their files? Yeah... I thought so.

chillacy 11y ago
I know you're being sarcastic, but yes, some people do edit their files. They see that folder that says System32 and start re-organizing the files within, and then feel like computers are scary and difficult when things break.

mythz 11y ago

File Systems is also a complexity that confuses a lot of non-technical people, which is why Apple tries to hide that one even exists on iOS - Where can I find the latest document I was working on? Just open the app you created it with, as a bonus you'll get transparent syncing across all your devices. Syncing and Backup are tedial tasks most people wouldn't do if they needed to do it manually or configure an external program / service to do it.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
It's one thing to have a persistent object store instead of a file system (as the Newton did). It's wholly another to have a file system at the core of your OS but just pretend it doesn't exist. That's a regressive obfuscation, not encapsulation. (Yes, I understand who the target audience is.)
- mythz 11y ago
  Apple's primary focus is on UX simplicity and Customers couldn't care less how it's implemented behind the scenes, they just want to get stuff done, find the Word document they were working on or see the Photo or Video they just took. The less Customers have to know about how technology works the happier they are, and the more successful Apple is.
  - wwweston 11y ago
    The key part of that last statement is have to. You're right that as a matter of routine, having recent documents worked with in an app come up on opening it (and an easy visual list of all the files the app has touched) is a great interaction pattern. That says nothing about whether or not there should be some kind of file browser, or other means for users to become aware and able to interact with files outside an app. Particularly because at some point, single-app workflows hit their limits, and getting stuff done either becomes a matter of using multiple apps or waiting for an app to grow the new feature you need (the latter of which is not just getting stuff done). And I'm not just talking about Power Users -- I've seen this happen with my mom (proverbial disinterested computer user), who generally is quite happy to be completely unaware of the file system, but still periodically runs into corner cases where she needs to do something no single app will let her do (usually audio-file related). This all reminds me of the discussion around hiding URLs in browsers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7677898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7677898 For decades, we had a system where people who didn't care to pay any attention to URL bars could ignore them, and people who were incidentally curious could learn useful things by paying attention, people who needed to discover them could, and people found them regularly useful had them at the ready. Then somebody who got caught up in a shallow idea of simplicity that neglects utility and discoverability decided they'd make a UX change that was hostile to all of latter two groups. After all... the first group doesn't care, they just want to navigate the web and get stuff done. The right principle here is to make the simple case easy and obvious, and the more complex case discoverably possible.
    - mythz 11y ago
      No the key part is what target audience and use-cases are they optimizing for with each device. Do they want to create an experience that's so simple to use that they're enjoyed by both kids and non-technical grand parents, that's optimized for the most common everyday tasks, e.g browsing the web, shopping, reading news, books, taking photos, finding driving directions, writing emails, etc. Or do they want to offer a full Desktop OS that's suitable for everyone including devs and power users lets them run server software, multiple windows, anti virus software, network filesystems, development IDE's that enables them to build iOS Apps, etc. For those users they offer OSX on macbooks and iMac's and choose not to complicate their UX on their most popular computing platform - that's quickly becoming most of their Customers primary computing platform. It's Apple's felicitous focus on simplicity and Customer use-cases that's what's made them the most successful company in the world.
prapam2 11y ago
The whole OS file system yes. But for most non technical people the desktop would be the file system. They usually created folders after folders. Those are very easy to learn and understand.
72deluxe 11y ago
Don't you end up with multiple copies of a source file if you open in app A, share with B, share with C from app A, modify in B? Does app A's copy get updated with app B's modifications?