5 ms·

I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with US news, but this isn't true, at least until it's decided in court. GM, John Deere, and Ford all have the opposite o

by rnovak 11y ago

I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with US news, but this isn't true, at least until it's decided in court. GM, John Deere, and Ford all have the opposite opinion[1][2][3] [1]http://www.againstcronycapitalism.org/2015/04/john-deere-and-gm-says-you-dont-really-own-any-vehicles-bought-from-them-you-only-have-an-implied-license-for-the-life-of-the-vehicle-to-operate-the-vehicle/ http://www.againstcronycapitalism.org/2015/04/john-deere-and... [2]https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150421/23581430744/gm-says-that-while-you-may-own-your-car-it-owns-software-it-thanks-to-copyright.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150421/23581430744/gm-sa... [3]http://news.boldride.com/2015/04/gm-wants-to-make-working-on-your-own-car-illegal/76702/ http://news.boldride.com/2015/04/gm-wants-to-make-working-on... Not to mention I think it's currently illegal to Jailbreak an iPhone or root an Android, despite them being yours. I really do wish the US was as cut/dry as you make it seem, and I wish they cared about consumers more, but in reality, Companies get far more rights then we, as consumers, do. Edit:Formatting

daxelrod 11y ago
> Not to mention I think it's currently illegal to Jailbreak an iPhone or root an Android, despite them being yours. Has the 2012 DMCA jailbreaking exemption now expired? I know exemptions expire every three years, but I wasn't sure exactly when.
- pmh 11y ago
  It will expire in late October this year if the Librarian of Congress/US Copyright Office does not renew the exemption.
- rnovak 11y ago
  From what I understand, the exemptions only allow jailbrakeing/rooting with permission from the Manufacturer, which I highly doubt would be given from 80-90% of manufacturers
  - pmh 11y ago
    Your parent is referring to a DMCA exemption approved by the US Copyright Office in 2012. Jailbreaking phones is currently legal "where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of [lawfully obtained software] applications with computer programs on the telephone handset"[0], while jailbreaking tablets is not. See also this timeline of the EFF's efforts in getting DMCA exemptions: https://www.eff.org/issues/dmca-rulemaking https://www.eff.org/issues/dmca-rulemaking [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#United_States
superuser2 11y ago
The hardware is yours. If you want to blow away the firmware and write your own, no one can (legally) stop you on copyright grounds, though it might lose its street-legal status in the interest of the people you might manslaughter by writing buggy code. It's where you want to modify the software and post a derivative work online that copyright law kicks in. You may as well say that you do not "own" a book, because you don't have the right to share an edited version of it. Sort of true, but not very interesting.
- rnovak 11y ago
  Last time I checked, other than the Nexus phones, pretty much every manufacturer locks down their bootloaders, so no, you can't "blow away the firmware and write your own".
- TheLoneWolfling 11y ago
  > If you want to blow away the firmware... False premise: you often cannot blow away the firmware, because it is either hard-coded, or signed. And even when said premise is correct for a device, there are cases where the firmware inherently requires copyrighted material (For instance, requiring a (copyrighted) poem in a handshake).
  - jahewson 11y ago
    > And even when said premise is correct for a device, there are cases where the firmware inherently requires copyrighted material (For instance, requiring a (copyrighted) poem in a handshake). No way! Copyright law does not prevent someone from creating a new work that is designed to be compatible with an old work. Likely outcomes are that the poem would not qualify for copyright protection for that usage (it's not a poem as much as a sequence of arbitrary bytes to be read only by a computer), or that a fair use finding would be made, perhaps on the grounds that the copy does not affect the market for the original work - i.e. nobody was paying for the poem. Most likely a judge would just throw out the entire case at the start as a waste of the court's time.
    - 11y ago
URSpider94 11y ago
Yes, I'm well aware of these restrictions. However, I don't think they impact whether or not you own the THING. What GM, Ford, John Deere, Apple, etc. have said is that you can't tinker with their firmware that is installed on the device. None of them would argue that they can come repossess your tractor/car/mobile phone. As others have pointed out, it is not currently illegal to jailbreak a phone, though that may change in the near future. To make an analogy and play devil's advocate a little further, it would be hard to argue that I don't own my home. There is a deed to that effect recorded with the county, more than I can say for anything else I own. Yet: * The state can take it from me in short order if I don't pay my taxes * I have to get a permit from the city to make any substantial modifications to the property * There is a neighborhood association that dictates property uses as well, which I have to comply with * I couldn't just knock the house down and build a car repair garage -- city zoning ordinances restrict how I use my property. And yet, I don't hear a big outcry that I don't truly own my house.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  You forgot one. Most likely, the bank has first claim on your house.
  - philipov 11y ago
    With a mortgage, in some sense you really don't own your own home. You have equity in the home, and the home is collateral on your debt for the home, so until you've payed everything off, the bank owns the home. Equity and Ownership are related, but not equivalent concepts.
- rnovak 11y ago
  If you read that John Deere article, their specific quote is actually that you don't own the vehicle itself: ... an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle And fundamentally then, I think that I disagree with that particular view of ownership. I think my views align well with those declared by the EFF, in that I believe you should be allowed to tinker with your stuff.
chrismcb 11y ago
It is perfectly legal to jailbreak a phone... If you own it. You can't legally jailbreak it if it is on contract.

by rnovak 11y ago

daxelrod 11y ago

> Not to mention I think it's currently illegal to Jailbreak an iPhone or root an Android, despite them being yours. Has the 2012 DMCA jailbreaking exemption now expired? I know exemptions expire every three years, but I wasn't sure exactly when.

pmh 11y ago
It will expire in late October this year if the Librarian of Congress/US Copyright Office does not renew the exemption.
rnovak 11y ago
From what I understand, the exemptions only allow jailbrakeing/rooting with permission from the Manufacturer, which I highly doubt would be given from 80-90% of manufacturers
- pmh 11y ago
  Your parent is referring to a DMCA exemption approved by the US Copyright Office in 2012. Jailbreaking phones is currently legal "where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of [lawfully obtained software] applications with computer programs on the telephone handset"[0], while jailbreaking tablets is not. See also this timeline of the EFF's efforts in getting DMCA exemptions: https://www.eff.org/issues/dmca-rulemaking https://www.eff.org/issues/dmca-rulemaking [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#United_States

superuser2 11y ago

The hardware is yours. If you want to blow away the firmware and write your own, no one can (legally) stop you on copyright grounds, though it might lose its street-legal status in the interest of the people you might manslaughter by writing buggy code. It's where you want to modify the software and post a derivative work online that copyright law kicks in. You may as well say that you do not "own" a book, because you don't have the right to share an edited version of it. Sort of true, but not very interesting.

rnovak 11y ago
Last time I checked, other than the Nexus phones, pretty much every manufacturer locks down their bootloaders, so no, you can't "blow away the firmware and write your own".
TheLoneWolfling 11y ago
> If you want to blow away the firmware... False premise: you often cannot blow away the firmware, because it is either hard-coded, or signed. And even when said premise is correct for a device, there are cases where the firmware inherently requires copyrighted material (For instance, requiring a (copyrighted) poem in a handshake).
- jahewson 11y ago
  > And even when said premise is correct for a device, there are cases where the firmware inherently requires copyrighted material (For instance, requiring a (copyrighted) poem in a handshake). No way! Copyright law does not prevent someone from creating a new work that is designed to be compatible with an old work. Likely outcomes are that the poem would not qualify for copyright protection for that usage (it's not a poem as much as a sequence of arbitrary bytes to be read only by a computer), or that a fair use finding would be made, perhaps on the grounds that the copy does not affect the market for the original work - i.e. nobody was paying for the poem. Most likely a judge would just throw out the entire case at the start as a waste of the court's time.
  - 11y ago

URSpider94 11y ago

Yes, I'm well aware of these restrictions. However, I don't think they impact whether or not you own the THING. What GM, Ford, John Deere, Apple, etc. have said is that you can't tinker with their firmware that is installed on the device. None of them would argue that they can come repossess your tractor/car/mobile phone. As others have pointed out, it is not currently illegal to jailbreak a phone, though that may change in the near future. To make an analogy and play devil's advocate a little further, it would be hard to argue that I don't own my home. There is a deed to that effect recorded with the county, more than I can say for anything else I own. Yet: * The state can take it from me in short order if I don't pay my taxes * I have to get a permit from the city to make any substantial modifications to the property * There is a neighborhood association that dictates property uses as well, which I have to comply with * I couldn't just knock the house down and build a car repair garage -- city zoning ordinances restrict how I use my property. And yet, I don't hear a big outcry that I don't truly own my house.

AnimalMuppet 11y ago
You forgot one. Most likely, the bank has first claim on your house.
- philipov 11y ago
  With a mortgage, in some sense you really don't own your own home. You have equity in the home, and the home is collateral on your debt for the home, so until you've payed everything off, the bank owns the home. Equity and Ownership are related, but not equivalent concepts.
rnovak 11y ago
If you read that John Deere article, their specific quote is actually that you don't own the vehicle itself: ... an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle And fundamentally then, I think that I disagree with that particular view of ownership. I think my views align well with those declared by the EFF, in that I believe you should be allowed to tinker with your stuff.

chrismcb 11y ago

It is perfectly legal to jailbreak a phone... If you own it. You can't legally jailbreak it if it is on contract.