11 ms·

Sounds interesting what would you use it for practically?

by Nilef 11y ago

potatolicious 11y ago
Always-on displays that need to blend into their environments, like a smart thermostat, and where power consumption is a concern. Even in non-power-constrained environments e-paper can be preferable - the glow of a typical LCD display is really distracting and doesn't fit in a lot of (most) environments. Have enough gadgets around with LED displays and indicators and your home suddenly seems like a really bad 80s movie.
- icebraining 11y ago
  What's the point of always-on, though? If you're reading the thermostat, isn't it usually to adjust it? Seems like wake-on-touch would be enough.
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    you can't read the temperature on a wake-on-touch thermostat from across the room.
    - jharger 11y ago
      Fair point. Though, it's not so easy to read the temperature across the room on these bad boys either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermostat#/media/File:Honeywell_round_thermostat.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermostat#/media/File:Honeywe...
      - moron4hire 11y ago
        I'm more thinking about something like this: http://www.wattselectronics.com/60-thermostats-wfht-lcd-rf.html?lang=2 http://www.wattselectronics.com/60-thermostats-wfht-lcd-rf.h... I think those are much more common in new installations. These are segmented LCD displays. An eInk display would not require an explicit segmentation layout, so new layouts could be programmed on the fly, prototyped very quickly, etc. And might even be a little easier to read, even during daylight hours I find these types of LCD displays difficult to read, especially from off-angles.
  - potatolicious 11y ago
    Nah, sometimes I just want to check the current temperature. A persistent problem with LCD-powered devices is that because of power consumption or general visual obnoxiousness their screens need to be kept off until use, but there's always a time lag. One of the more glaring problems with smart devices - smart watches especially - is that they have have a slight pause before they realize they're being used and activates. An always-on device doesn't have this problem and can be immediately used without delay. By themselves they're not huge issues, but as you own more and more such devices it becomes really annoying to be surrounded by "smart" inanimate objects that constantly make you wait - even for a brief moment - before they are usable, and in that way they seem much less pleasant than the dumb objects they replaced. Imagine having to rest a pen on paper for 500ms before you can begin writing, every time.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      I'd say that lag only exists because the UI is running on a full multi-task OS. My microwave display doesn't take any noticeable time to wake up when I rotate or press a button, and neither did my radio or my VCR. Smart but task-dedicated devices should probably run the display/buttons on a dedicated chip that talks to the CPU asynchronously, to avoid this problem.
      - potatolicious 11y ago
        The lag isn't UI-related or related to the specific software stack IMO. We've had to technology to build extremely lag-free devices for years now, the lag is more fundamental than that. Your microwave and VCR are always on - their displays are also always on, so they don't need to be woken up before being used, they are already awake. A thermostat with an always-on screen is the same, they're already displaying information and the touch screen can be immediately used without delay - but we don't want the display to be always on, because in general LCDs look awful in their environments. In general people prefer their homes to not look like server rooms with blinking lights and garish panels everywhere. So there is a non-technological need to keep the screen off, and this presents a fundamental problem - before anything can be done, the screen must first be woken up. No matter how fast you make this process, at the end of the day is one extra step that the user must do before the device can be used. Apple Watch detects when your wrist is held in a certain position to activate - but sensing this gesture itself introduces lag. Hell, even a simplistic "on" button on the device itself - even if the response is perfectly immediately - necessarily requires the time for the user to trigger the action itself. You can't work around this with better software, because at the end of the day "activate device" is step 1, whereas with dumb technology step 1 is "use device". The only real solution is for your devices to be always-on in a much more fundamental way - like your VCR or microwave - and that in some cases means e-ink screens.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    About half the time, adjusting my Nest goes like this: 1. Wonder what the thermostat is currently set to. 2. Approach thermostat hoping to trigger the proximity detection. 3. Stand in front of thermostat like idiot for 2.4 seconds to see if proximity sensor activates. 4. Decide proximity sensor won't activate. 5. Turn bezel by smallest possible amount to wake thermostat without changing setting. 6. Overshoot and change setting anyway. 7. Realize original setting was acceptable. Put it back. Being always on would be nice. You can work around not having it be so (I'm sure the Nest's implementation can be improved) but the ideal would just be to have it always be visible. Of course, half the time I'm doing this, it's dark enough that I couldn't read an e-ink display....
mike-cardwell 11y ago
I'd like a large e-ink display to mount on the wall and display my calendar.
- masklinn 11y ago
  eink apparently has 32" displays: http://www.einkgroup.com/news.php?recordId=526 http://www.einkgroup.com/news.php?recordId=526 Or you could tile smaller modules: http://www.eink.com/press_releases/e_ink_mpicosys_pdi_eWall_unveiled_092513.html http://www.eink.com/press_releases/e_ink_mpicosys_pdi_eWall_...
  - mike-cardwell 11y ago
    There have been lots of press releases about large e-ink displays over the last few years. I never find anywhere that I can actually buy them though.
    - masklinn 11y ago
      These are specialised industrial suppliers, you can't buy it at a place, you have to request a quote from a supplier[0] and pray you'll get a callback (then try again through a different channel, because they most likely won't reply to somebody who just wants a 32" panel, note how the contact form has a "volume" selection starting at "< 10000 units/year"). Seriously. When you try to get an evaluation/test kit you get a 7-segments display[1]. [0] http://www.eink.com/contact_sales.html http://www.eink.com/contact_sales.html [1] http://www.eink.com/quick_start_kit.html http://www.eink.com/quick_start_kit.html
      - userbinator 11y ago
        If you want smaller ones, ebook readers like the Kindle have made those relatively cheap and others have reverse-engineered the drive signals required: http://www.essentialscrap.com/eink/index.html http://www.essentialscrap.com/eink/index.html http://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/interfacing-epd-(e-ink)-display-from-kindle-anyone-tried/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/interfacing-ep...

Sounds interesting what would you use it for practically?

by Nilef 11y ago

Sounds interesting what would you use it for practically?

Always-on displays that need to blend into their environments, like a smart thermostat, and where power consumption is a concern. Even in non-power-constrained environments e-paper can be preferable - the glow of a typical LCD display is really distracting and doesn't fit in a lot of (most) environments. Have enough gadgets around with LED displays and indicators and your home suddenly seems like a really bad 80s movie.

icebraining 11y ago
What's the point of always-on, though? If you're reading the thermostat, isn't it usually to adjust it? Seems like wake-on-touch would be enough.
- moron4hire 11y ago
  you can't read the temperature on a wake-on-touch thermostat from across the room.
  - jharger 11y ago
    Fair point. Though, it's not so easy to read the temperature across the room on these bad boys either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermostat#/media/File:Honeywell_round_thermostat.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermostat#/media/File:Honeywe...
    - moron4hire 11y ago
      I'm more thinking about something like this: http://www.wattselectronics.com/60-thermostats-wfht-lcd-rf.html?lang=2 http://www.wattselectronics.com/60-thermostats-wfht-lcd-rf.h... I think those are much more common in new installations. These are segmented LCD displays. An eInk display would not require an explicit segmentation layout, so new layouts could be programmed on the fly, prototyped very quickly, etc. And might even be a little easier to read, even during daylight hours I find these types of LCD displays difficult to read, especially from off-angles.
- potatolicious 11y ago
  Nah, sometimes I just want to check the current temperature. A persistent problem with LCD-powered devices is that because of power consumption or general visual obnoxiousness their screens need to be kept off until use, but there's always a time lag. One of the more glaring problems with smart devices - smart watches especially - is that they have have a slight pause before they realize they're being used and activates. An always-on device doesn't have this problem and can be immediately used without delay. By themselves they're not huge issues, but as you own more and more such devices it becomes really annoying to be surrounded by "smart" inanimate objects that constantly make you wait - even for a brief moment - before they are usable, and in that way they seem much less pleasant than the dumb objects they replaced. Imagine having to rest a pen on paper for 500ms before you can begin writing, every time.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    I'd say that lag only exists because the UI is running on a full multi-task OS. My microwave display doesn't take any noticeable time to wake up when I rotate or press a button, and neither did my radio or my VCR. Smart but task-dedicated devices should probably run the display/buttons on a dedicated chip that talks to the CPU asynchronously, to avoid this problem.
    - potatolicious 11y ago
      The lag isn't UI-related or related to the specific software stack IMO. We've had to technology to build extremely lag-free devices for years now, the lag is more fundamental than that. Your microwave and VCR are always on - their displays are also always on, so they don't need to be woken up before being used, they are already awake. A thermostat with an always-on screen is the same, they're already displaying information and the touch screen can be immediately used without delay - but we don't want the display to be always on, because in general LCDs look awful in their environments. In general people prefer their homes to not look like server rooms with blinking lights and garish panels everywhere. So there is a non-technological need to keep the screen off, and this presents a fundamental problem - before anything can be done, the screen must first be woken up. No matter how fast you make this process, at the end of the day is one extra step that the user must do before the device can be used. Apple Watch detects when your wrist is held in a certain position to activate - but sensing this gesture itself introduces lag. Hell, even a simplistic "on" button on the device itself - even if the response is perfectly immediately - necessarily requires the time for the user to trigger the action itself. You can't work around this with better software, because at the end of the day "activate device" is step 1, whereas with dumb technology step 1 is "use device". The only real solution is for your devices to be always-on in a much more fundamental way - like your VCR or microwave - and that in some cases means e-ink screens.
- mikeash 11y ago
  About half the time, adjusting my Nest goes like this: 1. Wonder what the thermostat is currently set to. 2. Approach thermostat hoping to trigger the proximity detection. 3. Stand in front of thermostat like idiot for 2.4 seconds to see if proximity sensor activates. 4. Decide proximity sensor won't activate. 5. Turn bezel by smallest possible amount to wake thermostat without changing setting. 6. Overshoot and change setting anyway. 7. Realize original setting was acceptable. Put it back. Being always on would be nice. You can work around not having it be so (I'm sure the Nest's implementation can be improved) but the ideal would just be to have it always be visible. Of course, half the time I'm doing this, it's dark enough that I couldn't read an e-ink display....

mike-cardwell 11y ago

I'd like a large e-ink display to mount on the wall and display my calendar.

masklinn 11y ago
eink apparently has 32" displays: http://www.einkgroup.com/news.php?recordId=526 http://www.einkgroup.com/news.php?recordId=526 Or you could tile smaller modules: http://www.eink.com/press_releases/e_ink_mpicosys_pdi_eWall_unveiled_092513.html http://www.eink.com/press_releases/e_ink_mpicosys_pdi_eWall_...
- mike-cardwell 11y ago
  There have been lots of press releases about large e-ink displays over the last few years. I never find anywhere that I can actually buy them though.
  - masklinn 11y ago
    These are specialised industrial suppliers, you can't buy it at a place, you have to request a quote from a supplier[0] and pray you'll get a callback (then try again through a different channel, because they most likely won't reply to somebody who just wants a 32" panel, note how the contact form has a "volume" selection starting at "< 10000 units/year"). Seriously. When you try to get an evaluation/test kit you get a 7-segments display[1]. [0] http://www.eink.com/contact_sales.html http://www.eink.com/contact_sales.html [1] http://www.eink.com/quick_start_kit.html http://www.eink.com/quick_start_kit.html
    - userbinator 11y ago
      If you want smaller ones, ebook readers like the Kindle have made those relatively cheap and others have reverse-engineered the drive signals required: http://www.essentialscrap.com/eink/index.html http://www.essentialscrap.com/eink/index.html http://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/interfacing-epd-(e-ink)-display-from-kindle-anyone-tried/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/interfacing-ep...