9 ms·

> I use the patent to sell a product Let's say that you are a patent holder for an über-toaster. If some company is making über-toasters using your patent, yo

> I use the patent to sell a product Let's say that you are a patent holder for an über-toaster. If some company is making über-toasters using your patent, you can stop them from using your patent for their profit. This is what patents for. If some other company is buying used über-toasters, fixes them and re-sells them, you should not be able to stop them from re-selling fixed über-toasters.

dalke 11y ago
As you and chii correctly point out, the NYT article is about resale. I believe however that amelius, with the statement "Patent Law shouldn't block any sale", meant to broaden the topic to include first sale. My comment should be viewed as commenting on that change of topic. If amelius only meant to include re-selling equipment acquired under a valid patent license, then the phrase "It should at most lead to reasonable financial compensation of the inventors" makes no sense. Were patent rights to follow first-sale doctrine, the patent holder would receive no financial compensation for resale. Which, for the record, is fine with me. I was remiss in not making that clear in my scenario.
Joeri 11y ago
It seems to me that when a patent covers a product that is sold, the sale implies a license on that patent for that product. The license is sold along with the product. So if the über-toaster is resold, the patent license is sold along with it, regardless of the number of intermediate steps. If that's not how the law works, it's how it should work. Actually scratch that, the way it should work is to not have patents at all, since they lost their net benefit to society a long time ago (if they ever had it), but that's a whole other can of worms.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  Patents are still valuable, but only for research that requires massive investments.
  - Joeri 11y ago
    They also cause a lot of research not to happen, and a lot of products to not come to market. If you take a holistic view, as a society we would be better off without patents.
    - throwawaykf05 11y ago
      There is simply not enough empirical evidence to support your assertions. Every time I've asked for evidence to support similar assertions, I've gotten nothing but vague anecdotes or historical examples that have been debunked. This is unfortunate, because there are plenty of empirical studies showing the benefits and costs of patents (search ssrn.com for "patents" and focus on the studies that use economic data). The upshot is, to date nobody has been able to say the one outweighs the other largely because they are not directly comparable.
      - nitrogen 11y ago
        Does the book "Against Intellectual Monopoly" not have any such examples? http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.ht...
        throwawaykf05 11y ago
        This book gets cited a lot in such discussions, so I usually just respond by linking some of my previous comments that address it and related works :-) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7890441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7890441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8157206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8157206
      - WildUtah 11y ago
        Without patents the new pharmaceutical industry would collapse and complicated new drugs we might otherwise benefit from would be lost. But computer software and tech startups would be much better off since patents are purely harmful to software innovation. Which points to one obvious reform.
dfragnito 11y ago
"Servicise" everything. The purchase of the UBER-toaster has a web-service associated with it. Do you really want the toaster or do you want your bread toaseted? When you re "sell" the toaster the service goes with it, it cost money to provide this service, so maybe the service provider is due a portion of the resale?
jameshart 11y ago
That sounds like a loophole a patent infringer could easily drive a bus through. "I'm not infringing the patent, I'm just reselling these patent-infringing items that were manufactured by a company in China that - oh dear, doesn't seem to exist any more."
- zeveb 11y ago
  The key there is that the patent-infringing items were never properly authorized by the patent holder. But a patent holder should not be able to prevent the resale of items he has previously licensed appropriately. Nor, IMHO, should he be able to attach conditions to his license: a sale is a sale, and once someone has sold something his interest in it should end.
  - dalke 11y ago
    Which is no doubt why companies want to switch from sales to rentals. If I rent you a toaster (or rent software, or rent an e-book), then there's no sale, and I can keep my interest.

dalke 11y ago

As you and chii correctly point out, the NYT article is about resale. I believe however that amelius, with the statement "Patent Law shouldn't block any sale", meant to broaden the topic to include first sale. My comment should be viewed as commenting on that change of topic. If amelius only meant to include re-selling equipment acquired under a valid patent license, then the phrase "It should at most lead to reasonable financial compensation of the inventors" makes no sense. Were patent rights to follow first-sale doctrine, the patent holder would receive no financial compensation for resale. Which, for the record, is fine with me. I was remiss in not making that clear in my scenario.

Joeri 11y ago

It seems to me that when a patent covers a product that is sold, the sale implies a license on that patent for that product. The license is sold along with the product. So if the über-toaster is resold, the patent license is sold along with it, regardless of the number of intermediate steps. If that's not how the law works, it's how it should work. Actually scratch that, the way it should work is to not have patents at all, since they lost their net benefit to society a long time ago (if they ever had it), but that's a whole other can of worms.

venomsnake 11y ago
Patents are still valuable, but only for research that requires massive investments.
- Joeri 11y ago
  They also cause a lot of research not to happen, and a lot of products to not come to market. If you take a holistic view, as a society we would be better off without patents.
  - throwawaykf05 11y ago
    There is simply not enough empirical evidence to support your assertions. Every time I've asked for evidence to support similar assertions, I've gotten nothing but vague anecdotes or historical examples that have been debunked. This is unfortunate, because there are plenty of empirical studies showing the benefits and costs of patents (search ssrn.com for "patents" and focus on the studies that use economic data). The upshot is, to date nobody has been able to say the one outweighs the other largely because they are not directly comparable.
    - nitrogen 11y ago
      Does the book "Against Intellectual Monopoly" not have any such examples? http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.ht...
      - throwawaykf05 11y ago
        This book gets cited a lot in such discussions, so I usually just respond by linking some of my previous comments that address it and related works :-) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7890441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7890441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8157206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8157206
    - WildUtah 11y ago
      Without patents the new pharmaceutical industry would collapse and complicated new drugs we might otherwise benefit from would be lost. But computer software and tech startups would be much better off since patents are purely harmful to software innovation. Which points to one obvious reform.

dfragnito 11y ago

"Servicise" everything. The purchase of the UBER-toaster has a web-service associated with it. Do you really want the toaster or do you want your bread toaseted? When you re "sell" the toaster the service goes with it, it cost money to provide this service, so maybe the service provider is due a portion of the resale?

jameshart 11y ago

That sounds like a loophole a patent infringer could easily drive a bus through. "I'm not infringing the patent, I'm just reselling these patent-infringing items that were manufactured by a company in China that - oh dear, doesn't seem to exist any more."

zeveb 11y ago
The key there is that the patent-infringing items were never properly authorized by the patent holder. But a patent holder should not be able to prevent the resale of items he has previously licensed appropriately. Nor, IMHO, should he be able to attach conditions to his license: a sale is a sale, and once someone has sold something his interest in it should end.
- dalke 11y ago
  Which is no doubt why companies want to switch from sales to rentals. If I rent you a toaster (or rent software, or rent an e-book), then there's no sale, and I can keep my interest.