5 ms·

Apple and Other Tech Companies Tangle with U.S. Over Data Access

60 points by jeo1234 11y ago

tzs 11y ago
How do these things work in the case of physical goods and documents? For instance, suppose you and I are both US residents, residing in the US. You loan me some item. I fail to return it and you sue me. The court orders me to return the item to you. If I had that item in a storage locker in Los Angeles, there is no question that the court would have the authority to order me to retrieve that item and turn it over to you or to the court. Suppose, however, I have taken the item to Mexico and have it in a storage locker there? Can I now get away with telling the court that since the item is in Mexico, the court does not authority to order me to retrieve it (or to order me to instruct the storage facility to retrieve it and ship it to me)? Similar question for physical documents. For instance, if GM set up a documents storage facility a few miles away from its headquarters, across the border in Canada, and kept all documents not actively in use at the Canadian facility, would they then be able to fend off document subpoenas from US safety investigators this way?
- datapolitical 11y ago
  What if you stored it on a cloud server, but you encrypted it with strong keys and a password?
- cletus 11y ago
  There are two entities in question: you and the object. You are within the jurisdiction of the U.S. And can be held in contempt, charged (even in absentia), etc. The object is now within the jurisdiction of Mexico so it gets complicated. A Mexican court can be petitioned to require the entity that (unwittingly or not) possesses it to turn it over, etc. The difference with data Ina server is that a company has the power to turn it over regardless of where it's stored and the U.S. Government is having their hat on that. By physically locating servers in other jurisdictions you have to comply with their laws too and that gets complicated. You can end up Ina situation where one government doesn't recognize the authority of the other and you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Personally I find the constant overreach of the U.S. Government to be appalling and entirely short term I it's thinking.
- mcv 11y ago
  The problem in this case is that the data does not belong to the US government, but to a private person. If the law in Mexico says that you're not allowed to give someone else's object to the US government, obeying US law might require breaking Mexican law.
jackgavigan 11y ago
> Microsoft said federal officials would have to get an order from an Irish court, because the emails were stored on servers in Dublin. The feds are being hoisted on their own petard somewhat here, having long argued that a foreign person's data held on a US server is subject to US jurisdiction. The logical corrollary to that argument is that data held on an Irish server is subject to Irish jurisdiction. It is standard practise for companies in Europe (e.g. the bank I'm consulting for right now) to ensure that, when they subscribe to cloud services, their data is held stored and processed in datacentres within the EU, so that it is subject to EU legislation and, hence, the EU's data protection laws.
- ed_blackburn 11y ago
  > It is standard practise for companies in Europe (e.g. the bank I'm consulting for right now) to ensure that, when they subscribe to cloud services, their data is held stored and processed in datacentres within the EU, so that it is subject to EU legislation and, hence, the EU's data protection laws. Absolutely. EU Data Protection Laws are so enshrined, I would argue that they are part of the culture. In the UK it's part of the educational syllabus to learn about the Data Protection Act. If American companies cannot adhere to the act, companies will walk away from those services. I see a lucrative market opening up for "private clouds" whereby the requirement is, is the data "safe" is it vulnerable to American jurisdiction? Is there a business opportunity here to brag about 100% none American? I don't see that being conducive to a free, open, global economy. Least of all between two of the largest economies. There is rule-of-law in the EU and warrants do get issued and executed. The rabid pursuit of this by the US can only be counter productive in my mind. For everyone.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Health services moving to digital working pay money to have software and services that respect privacy and that don't send data everywhere.
  - HiYaBarbie 11y ago
    Oh come on. As if governments all over the EU weren't monitoring their people as best they can, just like the US does. In theory, they might bicker a bit behind the scenes over who gets access to what data etc, but it's also in their self-interest to co-operate in their spying activities. It's all about maintaining their rule over the masses, after all, and that's a goal they all share.
harkyns_castle 11y ago
Any time I read this type of article, I keep recalling what irritated the hell out of me with the Snowden leaks and responses of US citizens. To paraphrase: "It's terrible they're spying on US citizens (but everyone else is fair game, geez, whack a splicer in that fibre channel asap)". The US has reinvented the concept of borderlines on the Internet with what the NSA/TLAs have been up to. I'd say that's a distinct step backwards.
- Tloewald 11y ago
  The response of most US citizens has been, "Snowden?" But then there are plenty of people on HN who should know better who are outraged, OUTRAGED to discover the US is spying on people, but seem to have no issues with their own and other governments spying on them. So it's ignorance and hypocrisy all-round.
  - harkyns_castle 11y ago
    Well, all of the Five Eyes are complicit, no argument there. Certainly a top-heavy weighting from the US though, with basically control of the net, and a stellar budget. The peons just follow the marching orders.
AdmiralAsshat 11y ago
“Only Congress has the institutional competence and constitutional authority to balance law enforcement needs against our nation’s sovereignty, the privacy of its citizens and the competitiveness of its industry.” What competence?
codezero 11y ago
In practical terms how much will this set back the U.S. Govt? Won't they get rapid support from European countries and just make the process streamlined?

60 points by jeo1234 11y ago

tzs 11y ago

How do these things work in the case of physical goods and documents? For instance, suppose you and I are both US residents, residing in the US. You loan me some item. I fail to return it and you sue me. The court orders me to return the item to you. If I had that item in a storage locker in Los Angeles, there is no question that the court would have the authority to order me to retrieve that item and turn it over to you or to the court. Suppose, however, I have taken the item to Mexico and have it in a storage locker there? Can I now get away with telling the court that since the item is in Mexico, the court does not authority to order me to retrieve it (or to order me to instruct the storage facility to retrieve it and ship it to me)? Similar question for physical documents. For instance, if GM set up a documents storage facility a few miles away from its headquarters, across the border in Canada, and kept all documents not actively in use at the Canadian facility, would they then be able to fend off document subpoenas from US safety investigators this way?

datapolitical 11y ago
What if you stored it on a cloud server, but you encrypted it with strong keys and a password?
cletus 11y ago
There are two entities in question: you and the object. You are within the jurisdiction of the U.S. And can be held in contempt, charged (even in absentia), etc. The object is now within the jurisdiction of Mexico so it gets complicated. A Mexican court can be petitioned to require the entity that (unwittingly or not) possesses it to turn it over, etc. The difference with data Ina server is that a company has the power to turn it over regardless of where it's stored and the U.S. Government is having their hat on that. By physically locating servers in other jurisdictions you have to comply with their laws too and that gets complicated. You can end up Ina situation where one government doesn't recognize the authority of the other and you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Personally I find the constant overreach of the U.S. Government to be appalling and entirely short term I it's thinking.
mcv 11y ago
The problem in this case is that the data does not belong to the US government, but to a private person. If the law in Mexico says that you're not allowed to give someone else's object to the US government, obeying US law might require breaking Mexican law.

jackgavigan 11y ago

> Microsoft said federal officials would have to get an order from an Irish court, because the emails were stored on servers in Dublin. The feds are being hoisted on their own petard somewhat here, having long argued that a foreign person's data held on a US server is subject to US jurisdiction. The logical corrollary to that argument is that data held on an Irish server is subject to Irish jurisdiction. It is standard practise for companies in Europe (e.g. the bank I'm consulting for right now) to ensure that, when they subscribe to cloud services, their data is held stored and processed in datacentres within the EU, so that it is subject to EU legislation and, hence, the EU's data protection laws.

ed_blackburn 11y ago
> It is standard practise for companies in Europe (e.g. the bank I'm consulting for right now) to ensure that, when they subscribe to cloud services, their data is held stored and processed in datacentres within the EU, so that it is subject to EU legislation and, hence, the EU's data protection laws. Absolutely. EU Data Protection Laws are so enshrined, I would argue that they are part of the culture. In the UK it's part of the educational syllabus to learn about the Data Protection Act. If American companies cannot adhere to the act, companies will walk away from those services. I see a lucrative market opening up for "private clouds" whereby the requirement is, is the data "safe" is it vulnerable to American jurisdiction? Is there a business opportunity here to brag about 100% none American? I don't see that being conducive to a free, open, global economy. Least of all between two of the largest economies. There is rule-of-law in the EU and warrants do get issued and executed. The rabid pursuit of this by the US can only be counter productive in my mind. For everyone.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Health services moving to digital working pay money to have software and services that respect privacy and that don't send data everywhere.
- HiYaBarbie 11y ago
  Oh come on. As if governments all over the EU weren't monitoring their people as best they can, just like the US does. In theory, they might bicker a bit behind the scenes over who gets access to what data etc, but it's also in their self-interest to co-operate in their spying activities. It's all about maintaining their rule over the masses, after all, and that's a goal they all share.

harkyns_castle 11y ago

Any time I read this type of article, I keep recalling what irritated the hell out of me with the Snowden leaks and responses of US citizens. To paraphrase: "It's terrible they're spying on US citizens (but everyone else is fair game, geez, whack a splicer in that fibre channel asap)". The US has reinvented the concept of borderlines on the Internet with what the NSA/TLAs have been up to. I'd say that's a distinct step backwards.

Tloewald 11y ago
The response of most US citizens has been, "Snowden?" But then there are plenty of people on HN who should know better who are outraged, OUTRAGED to discover the US is spying on people, but seem to have no issues with their own and other governments spying on them. So it's ignorance and hypocrisy all-round.
- harkyns_castle 11y ago
  Well, all of the Five Eyes are complicit, no argument there. Certainly a top-heavy weighting from the US though, with basically control of the net, and a stellar budget. The peons just follow the marching orders.

AdmiralAsshat 11y ago

“Only Congress has the institutional competence and constitutional authority to balance law enforcement needs against our nation’s sovereignty, the privacy of its citizens and the competitiveness of its industry.” What competence?

codezero 11y ago

In practical terms how much will this set back the U.S. Govt? Won't they get rapid support from European countries and just make the process streamlined?