9 ms·

BMW’s sector-defining 3 Series has turned 40

46 points by shawndumas 11y ago

raspasov 11y ago
Can't help it but make the comparison between the iPhone and the 3 series. Both are at the same time a status symbol, and best-in-class utility machines with exquisite design. The 3 series has been around for much, much longer though.
- Aoyagi 11y ago
  >best-in-class Have you seen the latest trends of BMW? The way how they're going downhill and how Cadillac and their "sport-luxury" sedans are catching up makes me feel like the perception of BMW is an anachronism.
  - vetinari 11y ago
    That's what happens when the customers are more interested in iPhone connectivity and entertainment options instead of suspension and engine. Also, when the regulations will force you to put in bullshit like start-stop system or efficiency regulations force engine downsizing and use of turbos. That's why even Hyundai is catching up and the premium brands are standing still. For existing owner, there is no reason to switch from E46 or E90 to F30. The older ones are more fun.
    - raspasov 11y ago
      I agree, especially the newest 328i with its 4 cylinder engine that sounds like a motorboat :). Tbe previous generation is way better.
      - chubs 11y ago
        The direct injection makes the petrol engine sound like a clunky diesel. It's pretty crummy. Combined with the wooden electric power steering and they're really boring cars to drive. Not to mention the gripless run-flat tyres. I used to own one - never again, all they've got going for them is the admittedly lovely styling.
      - cowkingdeluxe 11y ago
        The new ones have more horsepower even with the 4 cylinder. Better handling too. For example the 2016 is a 4 cylinder but has 10 more horsepower and 26% more torque than the 2011 6 cylinder. Do they need to pipe in engine sounds into the speaker system like other brands do (Lexus)?
        vetinari 11y ago
        The turbocharged 4 cylinder, while has more horsepower and more torque, has also much shorter life span. Do not expect to drive upwards 500k km on it. But I guess for those who buy cars for 4 years, that's fine.
        gaadd33 11y ago
        How much do people drive where you are located? At least in the US, even if the car/engine only lasted 200K miles (~321k km) that would still be about 13 years of average use.
        vetinari 11y ago
        Depends on the car. The old diesels or atmospheric petrol engines in sedans were build to serve almost forever (petrol 500k, diesel 1m). Even "newer" (cca end of nineties) turbo-diesels were robust - I was once in a taxi (Skoda Octavia), that had 800k on the odometer... On the other hand, new compact cars with their 1.0 - 1.2 three cylinder, turbo charged engines will be done in the 100-150k range. Again, if you want to buy a new car and get rid of it after the lease is paid, they will be fine. If you want to keep it longer, look somewhere else.
    - Aoyagi 11y ago
      Well, downsizing is a lot to blame I guess. Still though, I think it has (at best) a 3L turbo-charged engine, which is weaker than Cadillac's NA 3.6L engine (which isn't available in Europe though).
    - Shivetya 11y ago
      Start/Stop and Turbos are fine. I experience both in my 2012 Z4. That little turbo hardtop car is averaging over thirty miles per gallon for me while driving locally/commuting and hit forty on a long distance trip. So all that mileage and fun, I will take it. BMW is going to PHEV/Hybrid all their cars within five to ten years so I expect we will get used to it. Far better option than lugging around eight hundred or more pounds of battery. Figure your going to end up with quite a few three cylinder engines and such until eventually replaced by some form of fuel cell and buffer battery. I don't think BMW is losing its handling prowess, I do think others are catching up and a few surpass them here and there; Jaguar is getting good marks.
      - marincounty 11y ago
        All this engineering is fine, until that sensor, or system breaks down? These vehicles are becomming so difficult to work on even the dealership mechanics are learning on the the customers' dime. I won't even get started on the proprietary software, and the fact that independent 3 party repair shops can't even buy access to the repair codes. My father used to say I can roll down my own windows. I thought at the time he was being to hard on the industry. They finally engineered servos that worked longer than a year. He would flip if he saw just how complicated vechicles have become, and how he would wouldn't be able to buy a service manual, and do most of repairs. My father bought very few new automobiles, but always bought a factory service manual, and did all his own repairs. His last vechicle was a 98 Dodge Dakota. It was still simple enough for him to work on, and now myself to work on. (My father passed away a few years after he bought the Dodge.) I will hand it to certain companies, like Toyota, who engineer complicated vechicles, but these vechicles are putting easily 250,000 miles on the odometer. Yes, a lot of the fancy features/gadgets stop working, but the vechicle still runs, and gets through smog. Needed advances in technology--yes! Fluff/gadgets--no! But I'm just an older guy who really never got the need for so many retractable beverage holders.
        protomyth 11y ago
        The sad part is that electric cars should be simpler to work on than gas powered cars. I honestly think a company that builds a easy to repair electric will make cash. They will probably still make fine money off service, but having the option means something to people recommending product. // sorry for your loss - glad the vehicle lives on
  - beedogs 11y ago
    To me, the E46 body was the last good-looking 3 series BMW made. I haven't seen one since that made me feel the same way.
    - arethuza 11y ago
      Have you seen an i8 - they are one of the best looking cars I've seen in the last few years. They look much nicer than they do in pictures.
      - robin_reala 11y ago
        Agreed, although once you’ve had the back of the i8 described to you as trying to give birth to a 911 it’s difficult to unsee it: https://d37nk263jfz2p8.cloudfront.net/image/1/700/0/uploads/articles/bmw_i8-49-53bd743fbf1ce.jpg https://d37nk263jfz2p8.cloudfront.net/image/1/700/0/uploads/...
        m52go 11y ago
        That's hysterical.
      - hultner 11y ago
        I've seen one almost daily for a while now when I walk past either of the two BMW centers in close proximity to where I live and I can't say that I agree with you. To me the i8 (and even more so the i3) looks like some sort of weird Japanese spaceship from the future and not at all the subtle luxurious classy design that I expect from a German Premium wagon. In short it's to much attention, screaming "I'm here, look at me". I'm not a rapper I want timeless class not flashy bling.
        threeseed 11y ago
        I've seen a few on the road and they definitely aren't timeless. They will be considered tacky when people look back on them. But I suspect the purpose of them is very similar to the iMac. Designed to be distinctive, talked about and just a tad polarising.
  - anthony_d 11y ago
    Holy crap no. I just traded in a CTS Coupe. I got it because of style and wanted a change from the previous 2 BMW's. I got rid of it because in every aspect the Cadillac was inferior to the BMW's. I actually went with Audi but all of the big German brands MB/Audi/BMW are in a completely different league than Cadillac.
  - tobltobs 11y ago
    "how Cadillac and their "sport-luxury" sedans are catching up " Catching up? Maybe on a road without curves.
    - GVIrish 11y ago
      Actually that's where the new Cadillac's are strong. The ATS and CTS tend to score at the top of their respective segments in handling and the V series versions of both cars typically win performance comparos. Where they fall down is in the interior styling and materials.
      - schreiaj 11y ago
        Agreed, it's mostly fit and finish. Truth, if we only look at on road performance the CTS/ATS probably beat the 3 series. But the interior of a BMW is just leaps and bounds above the cheap feel of the Cadillac. Source, daily driver is a 2013 3 Series and my brother is one of the engineers doing NVH testing on the CTS/ATS, we compare notes frequently. And, as part of his job he did have to test the other vehicles in the class. Honestly, after a relocation I can't really justify the cost of the BMW so when my lease is up I'm going to be REALLY sad to get rid of it, nothing else seems to really come close.
      - Aoyagi 11y ago
        As far as interior or the last generations goes, I agree. Glossy touch-only iPhonization is disgusting. Then again, I hate most newest modern interiors, including that of 3 Series. However, previous generation of CTS has one of the best interiors I've seen ever.
        schreiaj 11y ago
        Touch screen based climate controls make me sad. I can't use them at all. User testing shows that in actual use people prefer the old 3 knob approach but they seem to be drawn to the glossy touch screen that you can't read in sun or even blindly grope at. I'd blame terrible drivers in New England on bad UX in the cars... but I know it's caused by them also eating a sandwich, doing their makeup, and talking on the phone while trying to merge.
- vetinari 11y ago
  I would compare iPhone and Audi, not BMW. Both have exquisite design and attention to detail... but in both cases, "something" is lacking. The difference between Audi and BMW is in the feel of driving (for BMW-heads at least ;) ). I feel the same with iPhone - it received immense attention by it's creators (just like Audi), but still, there is something missing. It has no "soul".
- emehrkay 11y ago
  I think the Apple/iPhone has a common design language across products like the BMW has with theirs (kidney bean grill, four headlamps, and the Hofmeister kink). I love when you can view a product's change over the years and the first looks a lot like the latest, like the Porsche 911 http://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/p/porsche/911/porsche_911_52.jpeg http://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/p/porsche/911/porsche_911_52... , the iPhone, and the 3 series
dingaling 11y ago
Sector-defining? The medium sporting saloon was fairly well established in Europe by the time the E21 arrived. Alfa Romeo, Lancia and Triumph were well established in the mainstream and there were plenty of smaller specialists too. BMW came along with a well-screwed-together package and struck marketing gold with that famous tag-line even though other cars may have been technically superior. That iPhone analogy is looking pretty accurate. Anyway the 3-series today has little heritage with That original vision. The E36 Compact ( which actually used parts of the E30 chassis ) was probably the last of that lineage until the recent 1-series.
- tobltobs 11y ago
  > Alfa Romeo, Lancia and Triumph ... Maybe the new thing about the 3er was that it didn't stand in a workshop most of the time.
- mfringel 11y ago
  Design and execution count. You mention "well-screwed-together package". To my mind, if they defined the "well-put-together mass-produced sporting sedan" segment by showing you could have a entry-level luxury sedan that wasn't perpetually in the shop, then yes, they did define a segment.
  - mzs 11y ago
    There was the Bluebird SSS from Datsun same time too, good handling, quite reliable, had executive models, even a 'sharknose' L series 6 in Japan all the way back in '74 years before the BMW M60. About the only thing E21 got better was safety, but Volvo had that before with the Amazon even, took til about '78-81 for the higher performance engines though.
- bradleyland 11y ago
  The phrase "sector defining" is commonly used to say that a car defines the target parameters of the sector at the time it is present. Not necessarily that that it was the first in the segment.
junto 11y ago
I sold my 1989 BMW E30 a couple of years ago. I was painful to sell, but due to the lack of environmentally friendly features, the road tax was getting ridiculously expensive (Germany). It was such fun to drive, unless it was raining and I had to go around a corner... My Dad still owns a garaged (undriven for 15 years) BMW 635 CSi from 1984. It looks like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwlXVqo7NrI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwlXVqo7NrI
- mschuster91 11y ago
  > My Dad still owns a garaged (undriven for 15 years) BMW 635 CSi from 1984. Is he interested in selling it maybe?
  - junto 11y ago
    Don't know. Never asked him. It is a UK car though. Steering wheel on the right.
    - mschuster91 11y ago
      Oh damn :/
- warmwaffles 11y ago
  Man I still drive my 1972 2002 around. Love every minute of it. I actually contemplated buying an e30 before my 2002.
S_A_P 11y ago
Im not much of a BMW fan myself, but I can appreciate what they do. My high school girlfriend had a 95 318is that I remember being a dog of a car. At ~2800 - 3000 pounds and having 136 hp it was grossly underpowered. The handling wasn't all that great, and at least in the case of the 318 had no tilt or telescoping steering wheel that for me was in a awful position. To top things off, the engine exploded while on a road trip about 40 miles outside of Houston while going about 75 mph. It was almost comical had it not been so dangerous, it literally spit oil onto the windshield when it blew.(The car wanted us dead) BMW has had a target on their back with the 3 series since the 90s though, and with every new generation pundits predict the fall of the 3. I think some of the criticisms are warranted, its getting really porky, expensive and not as fun to drive and toss-able as it once was. However, you could say that about most cars in the segment(A4, C series) and the a lot of the reason for this is safety requirements and buyer preferences for more luxury items these days. If I were to buy a BMW, I think I would want a late 80s 6 series. Those are beautiful cars, I shudder to think what the maintenance costs would be though.
- S_A_P 11y ago
  I guess I am not allowed to actually discuss actual experience with an E36 3 series in a negative light or someone will get their feelings hurt and down vote.
  - vetinari 11y ago
    Ignore the down voting - this is not a high school, where you have to be popular ;) I was also down voted in this thread, so what. We are not here to care for everyone's feeling and sing kumbaya.
  - varelse 11y ago
    BMWs, Audis, Teslas, Mercedes, Porsches and I'm sure I missed a few others: these are all sacred cow status symbols. You're going to get downvoted by their respective followers saying anything bad about them. I personally really dislike BMWs for delivering horrible !/$ and for iDrive. That said, for any of the above, if you're willing to spend $80K or more, you can get a pretty amazing car. I'm not: If I had one, I'd stay up all night worrying about my precious 4-wheeled baby. So I end up scooping up 3 year-old high-end lease returns worth half their MSRP or less with low mileage with no real brand loyalty. IMO here's a great article on taking this to the extreme: http://www.apidaonline.com/index.php/home/item/5-things-no-one-tells-you-about-owning-a-used-luxury-car http://www.apidaonline.com/index.php/home/item/5-things-no-o... Probably going to get downvoted for admitting I share your dislike of BMWs though (oddly, I don't mind Audis, for each their own).
robodale 11y ago
I've owned my 2009 335i since early 2010. It's fun to drive to say the least (twin turbo, 300 hp, 300 ft-lb torque). You have to pay to play though, the A/C evaporator started leaking last month. $2400 USD to fix. In it's defense, that's the first unplanned maintenance I've had to perform in over 5-1/2 years owning the car. I spent far more during that same amount of time on my previous car: 2001 Chrysler Sebring...wow, what a piece of shit. I don't see owning my BMW as a status symbol. Maybe more of a performance symbol though...because it certainly does perform.
- hippich 11y ago
  to counter, when we just moved to usa, i bought 2000 chrysler concorde for $2000 with minor cosmetic issues (broken mirror, shot hood and trunk springs, dirty interior. i drove this car for 4 years and sold for..... $2050 to upgrade for SUV since we got kids. Over time i had to replace water pump, belt, i had issue with hood locked due cable moved from its place, shocks, but it was pretty routine stuff. i had to do my own research (which is possible to do with cars 10+ years old) - 3.2L engine cars were reliable, while 2.7L ones were crap. Now I drive 2007 Ford Crown Victoria which I bought for $3400.... full set of brake pads and rotors under $200 :) and can be replaced without reprogramming ECU with simple tools you can get even in walmart :) And being police interceptor model, it is alrighty on the road (obviously can't compare performance wise with bi-turbo bmw engine, but i spend most of the time in the traffic, so ice cold AC is actually what I care about :))
tvm 11y ago
I've had E30 and E34. While the technical level and overall comfort was very nice, they were terrible rust buckets. Their current models can be fun though. Eg., try to change headlight on E70 (yes, you're going to need a hoist and rivet gun). BMW is just not what it used to be.
- vetinari 11y ago
  X5 and X6 are among the worst serviceable models, ever. Changing lights on E70... well, when it is on hoist, you can go the remove bumper+fender way :(
garyrichardson 11y ago
I miss my E30 328i cab. It felt like the pinnacle of what a car should be. With the manual transmission I've never felt more part of the car. I loved every second of driving it, even though the clutch felt like pushing two cinder blocks. I forgot to change the timing belt and blew the engine. I "upgraded" to an E36 cab. It's nice, but feels too soft and comfortable. The body shape is all bloated -- when you sit in an E30 there's your shoulder, the door and 1.5 inches later the outside. In an E36 it feels like there's a foot between you and the outside of the car.

46 points by shawndumas 11y ago

Can't help it but make the comparison between the iPhone and the 3 series. Both are at the same time a status symbol, and best-in-class utility machines with exquisite design. The 3 series has been around for much, much longer though.

Aoyagi 11y ago
>best-in-class Have you seen the latest trends of BMW? The way how they're going downhill and how Cadillac and their "sport-luxury" sedans are catching up makes me feel like the perception of BMW is an anachronism.
- vetinari 11y ago
  That's what happens when the customers are more interested in iPhone connectivity and entertainment options instead of suspension and engine. Also, when the regulations will force you to put in bullshit like start-stop system or efficiency regulations force engine downsizing and use of turbos. That's why even Hyundai is catching up and the premium brands are standing still. For existing owner, there is no reason to switch from E46 or E90 to F30. The older ones are more fun.
  - raspasov 11y ago
    I agree, especially the newest 328i with its 4 cylinder engine that sounds like a motorboat :). Tbe previous generation is way better.
    - chubs 11y ago
      The direct injection makes the petrol engine sound like a clunky diesel. It's pretty crummy. Combined with the wooden electric power steering and they're really boring cars to drive. Not to mention the gripless run-flat tyres. I used to own one - never again, all they've got going for them is the admittedly lovely styling.
    - cowkingdeluxe 11y ago
      The new ones have more horsepower even with the 4 cylinder. Better handling too. For example the 2016 is a 4 cylinder but has 10 more horsepower and 26% more torque than the 2011 6 cylinder. Do they need to pipe in engine sounds into the speaker system like other brands do (Lexus)?
      - vetinari 11y ago
        The turbocharged 4 cylinder, while has more horsepower and more torque, has also much shorter life span. Do not expect to drive upwards 500k km on it. But I guess for those who buy cars for 4 years, that's fine.
        gaadd33 11y ago
        How much do people drive where you are located? At least in the US, even if the car/engine only lasted 200K miles (~321k km) that would still be about 13 years of average use.
        vetinari 11y ago
        Depends on the car. The old diesels or atmospheric petrol engines in sedans were build to serve almost forever (petrol 500k, diesel 1m). Even "newer" (cca end of nineties) turbo-diesels were robust - I was once in a taxi (Skoda Octavia), that had 800k on the odometer... On the other hand, new compact cars with their 1.0 - 1.2 three cylinder, turbo charged engines will be done in the 100-150k range. Again, if you want to buy a new car and get rid of it after the lease is paid, they will be fine. If you want to keep it longer, look somewhere else.
  - Aoyagi 11y ago
    Well, downsizing is a lot to blame I guess. Still though, I think it has (at best) a 3L turbo-charged engine, which is weaker than Cadillac's NA 3.6L engine (which isn't available in Europe though).
  - Shivetya 11y ago
    Start/Stop and Turbos are fine. I experience both in my 2012 Z4. That little turbo hardtop car is averaging over thirty miles per gallon for me while driving locally/commuting and hit forty on a long distance trip. So all that mileage and fun, I will take it. BMW is going to PHEV/Hybrid all their cars within five to ten years so I expect we will get used to it. Far better option than lugging around eight hundred or more pounds of battery. Figure your going to end up with quite a few three cylinder engines and such until eventually replaced by some form of fuel cell and buffer battery. I don't think BMW is losing its handling prowess, I do think others are catching up and a few surpass them here and there; Jaguar is getting good marks.
    - marincounty 11y ago
      All this engineering is fine, until that sensor, or system breaks down? These vehicles are becomming so difficult to work on even the dealership mechanics are learning on the the customers' dime. I won't even get started on the proprietary software, and the fact that independent 3 party repair shops can't even buy access to the repair codes. My father used to say I can roll down my own windows. I thought at the time he was being to hard on the industry. They finally engineered servos that worked longer than a year. He would flip if he saw just how complicated vechicles have become, and how he would wouldn't be able to buy a service manual, and do most of repairs. My father bought very few new automobiles, but always bought a factory service manual, and did all his own repairs. His last vechicle was a 98 Dodge Dakota. It was still simple enough for him to work on, and now myself to work on. (My father passed away a few years after he bought the Dodge.) I will hand it to certain companies, like Toyota, who engineer complicated vechicles, but these vechicles are putting easily 250,000 miles on the odometer. Yes, a lot of the fancy features/gadgets stop working, but the vechicle still runs, and gets through smog. Needed advances in technology--yes! Fluff/gadgets--no! But I'm just an older guy who really never got the need for so many retractable beverage holders.
      - protomyth 11y ago
        The sad part is that electric cars should be simpler to work on than gas powered cars. I honestly think a company that builds a easy to repair electric will make cash. They will probably still make fine money off service, but having the option means something to people recommending product. // sorry for your loss - glad the vehicle lives on
- beedogs 11y ago
  To me, the E46 body was the last good-looking 3 series BMW made. I haven't seen one since that made me feel the same way.
  - arethuza 11y ago
    Have you seen an i8 - they are one of the best looking cars I've seen in the last few years. They look much nicer than they do in pictures.
    - robin_reala 11y ago
      Agreed, although once you’ve had the back of the i8 described to you as trying to give birth to a 911 it’s difficult to unsee it: https://d37nk263jfz2p8.cloudfront.net/image/1/700/0/uploads/articles/bmw_i8-49-53bd743fbf1ce.jpg https://d37nk263jfz2p8.cloudfront.net/image/1/700/0/uploads/...
      - m52go 11y ago
        That's hysterical.
    - hultner 11y ago
      I've seen one almost daily for a while now when I walk past either of the two BMW centers in close proximity to where I live and I can't say that I agree with you. To me the i8 (and even more so the i3) looks like some sort of weird Japanese spaceship from the future and not at all the subtle luxurious classy design that I expect from a German Premium wagon. In short it's to much attention, screaming "I'm here, look at me". I'm not a rapper I want timeless class not flashy bling.
      - threeseed 11y ago
        I've seen a few on the road and they definitely aren't timeless. They will be considered tacky when people look back on them. But I suspect the purpose of them is very similar to the iMac. Designed to be distinctive, talked about and just a tad polarising.
- anthony_d 11y ago
  Holy crap no. I just traded in a CTS Coupe. I got it because of style and wanted a change from the previous 2 BMW's. I got rid of it because in every aspect the Cadillac was inferior to the BMW's. I actually went with Audi but all of the big German brands MB/Audi/BMW are in a completely different league than Cadillac.
- tobltobs 11y ago
  "how Cadillac and their "sport-luxury" sedans are catching up " Catching up? Maybe on a road without curves.
  - GVIrish 11y ago
    Actually that's where the new Cadillac's are strong. The ATS and CTS tend to score at the top of their respective segments in handling and the V series versions of both cars typically win performance comparos. Where they fall down is in the interior styling and materials.
    - schreiaj 11y ago
      Agreed, it's mostly fit and finish. Truth, if we only look at on road performance the CTS/ATS probably beat the 3 series. But the interior of a BMW is just leaps and bounds above the cheap feel of the Cadillac. Source, daily driver is a 2013 3 Series and my brother is one of the engineers doing NVH testing on the CTS/ATS, we compare notes frequently. And, as part of his job he did have to test the other vehicles in the class. Honestly, after a relocation I can't really justify the cost of the BMW so when my lease is up I'm going to be REALLY sad to get rid of it, nothing else seems to really come close.
    - Aoyagi 11y ago
      As far as interior or the last generations goes, I agree. Glossy touch-only iPhonization is disgusting. Then again, I hate most newest modern interiors, including that of 3 Series. However, previous generation of CTS has one of the best interiors I've seen ever.
      - schreiaj 11y ago
        Touch screen based climate controls make me sad. I can't use them at all. User testing shows that in actual use people prefer the old 3 knob approach but they seem to be drawn to the glossy touch screen that you can't read in sun or even blindly grope at. I'd blame terrible drivers in New England on bad UX in the cars... but I know it's caused by them also eating a sandwich, doing their makeup, and talking on the phone while trying to merge.
vetinari 11y ago
I would compare iPhone and Audi, not BMW. Both have exquisite design and attention to detail... but in both cases, "something" is lacking. The difference between Audi and BMW is in the feel of driving (for BMW-heads at least ;) ). I feel the same with iPhone - it received immense attention by it's creators (just like Audi), but still, there is something missing. It has no "soul".
emehrkay 11y ago
I think the Apple/iPhone has a common design language across products like the BMW has with theirs (kidney bean grill, four headlamps, and the Hofmeister kink). I love when you can view a product's change over the years and the first looks a lot like the latest, like the Porsche 911 http://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/p/porsche/911/porsche_911_52.jpeg http://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/p/porsche/911/porsche_911_52... , the iPhone, and the 3 series

dingaling 11y ago

Sector-defining? The medium sporting saloon was fairly well established in Europe by the time the E21 arrived. Alfa Romeo, Lancia and Triumph were well established in the mainstream and there were plenty of smaller specialists too. BMW came along with a well-screwed-together package and struck marketing gold with that famous tag-line even though other cars may have been technically superior. That iPhone analogy is looking pretty accurate. Anyway the 3-series today has little heritage with That original vision. The E36 Compact ( which actually used parts of the E30 chassis ) was probably the last of that lineage until the recent 1-series.

tobltobs 11y ago
> Alfa Romeo, Lancia and Triumph ... Maybe the new thing about the 3er was that it didn't stand in a workshop most of the time.
mfringel 11y ago
Design and execution count. You mention "well-screwed-together package". To my mind, if they defined the "well-put-together mass-produced sporting sedan" segment by showing you could have a entry-level luxury sedan that wasn't perpetually in the shop, then yes, they did define a segment.
- mzs 11y ago
  There was the Bluebird SSS from Datsun same time too, good handling, quite reliable, had executive models, even a 'sharknose' L series 6 in Japan all the way back in '74 years before the BMW M60. About the only thing E21 got better was safety, but Volvo had that before with the Amazon even, took til about '78-81 for the higher performance engines though.
bradleyland 11y ago
The phrase "sector defining" is commonly used to say that a car defines the target parameters of the sector at the time it is present. Not necessarily that that it was the first in the segment.

junto 11y ago

I sold my 1989 BMW E30 a couple of years ago. I was painful to sell, but due to the lack of environmentally friendly features, the road tax was getting ridiculously expensive (Germany). It was such fun to drive, unless it was raining and I had to go around a corner... My Dad still owns a garaged (undriven for 15 years) BMW 635 CSi from 1984. It looks like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwlXVqo7NrI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwlXVqo7NrI

mschuster91 11y ago
> My Dad still owns a garaged (undriven for 15 years) BMW 635 CSi from 1984. Is he interested in selling it maybe?
- junto 11y ago
  Don't know. Never asked him. It is a UK car though. Steering wheel on the right.
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    Oh damn :/
warmwaffles 11y ago
Man I still drive my 1972 2002 around. Love every minute of it. I actually contemplated buying an e30 before my 2002.

S_A_P 11y ago

Im not much of a BMW fan myself, but I can appreciate what they do. My high school girlfriend had a 95 318is that I remember being a dog of a car. At ~2800 - 3000 pounds and having 136 hp it was grossly underpowered. The handling wasn't all that great, and at least in the case of the 318 had no tilt or telescoping steering wheel that for me was in a awful position. To top things off, the engine exploded while on a road trip about 40 miles outside of Houston while going about 75 mph. It was almost comical had it not been so dangerous, it literally spit oil onto the windshield when it blew.(The car wanted us dead) BMW has had a target on their back with the 3 series since the 90s though, and with every new generation pundits predict the fall of the 3. I think some of the criticisms are warranted, its getting really porky, expensive and not as fun to drive and toss-able as it once was. However, you could say that about most cars in the segment(A4, C series) and the a lot of the reason for this is safety requirements and buyer preferences for more luxury items these days. If I were to buy a BMW, I think I would want a late 80s 6 series. Those are beautiful cars, I shudder to think what the maintenance costs would be though.

S_A_P 11y ago
I guess I am not allowed to actually discuss actual experience with an E36 3 series in a negative light or someone will get their feelings hurt and down vote.
- vetinari 11y ago
  Ignore the down voting - this is not a high school, where you have to be popular ;) I was also down voted in this thread, so what. We are not here to care for everyone's feeling and sing kumbaya.
- varelse 11y ago
  BMWs, Audis, Teslas, Mercedes, Porsches and I'm sure I missed a few others: these are all sacred cow status symbols. You're going to get downvoted by their respective followers saying anything bad about them. I personally really dislike BMWs for delivering horrible !/$ and for iDrive. That said, for any of the above, if you're willing to spend $80K or more, you can get a pretty amazing car. I'm not: If I had one, I'd stay up all night worrying about my precious 4-wheeled baby. So I end up scooping up 3 year-old high-end lease returns worth half their MSRP or less with low mileage with no real brand loyalty. IMO here's a great article on taking this to the extreme: http://www.apidaonline.com/index.php/home/item/5-things-no-one-tells-you-about-owning-a-used-luxury-car http://www.apidaonline.com/index.php/home/item/5-things-no-o... Probably going to get downvoted for admitting I share your dislike of BMWs though (oddly, I don't mind Audis, for each their own).

robodale 11y ago

I've owned my 2009 335i since early 2010. It's fun to drive to say the least (twin turbo, 300 hp, 300 ft-lb torque). You have to pay to play though, the A/C evaporator started leaking last month. $2400 USD to fix. In it's defense, that's the first unplanned maintenance I've had to perform in over 5-1/2 years owning the car. I spent far more during that same amount of time on my previous car: 2001 Chrysler Sebring...wow, what a piece of shit. I don't see owning my BMW as a status symbol. Maybe more of a performance symbol though...because it certainly does perform.

hippich 11y ago
to counter, when we just moved to usa, i bought 2000 chrysler concorde for $2000 with minor cosmetic issues (broken mirror, shot hood and trunk springs, dirty interior. i drove this car for 4 years and sold for..... $2050 to upgrade for SUV since we got kids. Over time i had to replace water pump, belt, i had issue with hood locked due cable moved from its place, shocks, but it was pretty routine stuff. i had to do my own research (which is possible to do with cars 10+ years old) - 3.2L engine cars were reliable, while 2.7L ones were crap. Now I drive 2007 Ford Crown Victoria which I bought for $3400.... full set of brake pads and rotors under $200 :) and can be replaced without reprogramming ECU with simple tools you can get even in walmart :) And being police interceptor model, it is alrighty on the road (obviously can't compare performance wise with bi-turbo bmw engine, but i spend most of the time in the traffic, so ice cold AC is actually what I care about :))

tvm 11y ago

I've had E30 and E34. While the technical level and overall comfort was very nice, they were terrible rust buckets. Their current models can be fun though. Eg., try to change headlight on E70 (yes, you're going to need a hoist and rivet gun). BMW is just not what it used to be.

vetinari 11y ago
X5 and X6 are among the worst serviceable models, ever. Changing lights on E70... well, when it is on hoist, you can go the remove bumper+fender way :(

garyrichardson 11y ago

I miss my E30 328i cab. It felt like the pinnacle of what a car should be. With the manual transmission I've never felt more part of the car. I loved every second of driving it, even though the clutch felt like pushing two cinder blocks. I forgot to change the timing belt and blew the engine. I "upgraded" to an E36 cab. It's nice, but feels too soft and comfortable. The body shape is all bloated -- when you sit in an E30 there's your shoulder, the door and 1.5 inches later the outside. In an E36 it feels like there's a foot between you and the outside of the car.